How to get a Staccato Articulation in Spitfire Symph. Strings

[Ben E]

Hi,

Let's discuss the lack of Staccato, or Accented Staccato, in Spitfire Audio Symphonic Strings on this thread.

Thanks,
Muziksculp

Just out of curiosity -- wondering if you've already tried this: if you load SSS Short 0'5 patch, then click on the little wrench in the Spitfire GUI (not the Kontakt wrench) and then click on the dropdown triangle next to "Timed short arctic RTs" and select "Timed short arctic RTs" from the dropdown menu then the sample only plays for as long as you hold down the key (or the sample times out, whichever comes first.) Have you tried this? This is the way you're supposed to get staccato in SSS.

 

[jbuhler]

What's the difference between true staccato, and accented staccato?

I don't think there is a "true" staccato, so don't ask me. Staccato is a broad category of shorts, as @Gene Pool notes, and there are many playing techniques to achieve it. I would agree with @muziksculp that spiccato does not generally substitute for staccato except in an informal way, because spiccato is off the string, and staccato is on the string, but that in sample libraries the categories blur, and often spiccato patches sound to me like they are on the string at higher dynamics. But I also think staccato includes a much broader class of shorts than the one @muziksculp declares the one "true" one. In general, I think most sampled staccato verges on what I'd call staccatissimo, produced with the hammered martelé technique @Gene Pool also mentioned.

In some musical contexts, the SSS shorts definitely qualify as staccato. In other contexts they would not. I assume that's one reason SF opted to just call them "shorts," and they are exceptionally useful shorts, especially when you put them in the mode of "timed short artic RTs," which means their length conforms to the length of the midi note up to the length of the sample, and the same midi produces a slightly different shape to the short, though it's the same length, depending on whether the .5 second or 1 second short is used. Incidentally I noticed that Babylon Waves Articulation Sets calls them "tenuto" (0.5 short) and "marcato" (1.0 short), though I'd never characterize the 1 second short as marcato, because its attack is all wrong. Tenuto indeed implies the opposite of staccato, i.e., hold to the full length, but that depends on context. Quarter notes, BPM 120, tenuto yes, though it doesn't always sound right, depending on the material, but at slower tempos, increasingly no. As tempo decreases, it sounds increasingly like a staccato.

 

[muziksculp]

Just out of curiosity -- wondering if you've already tried this: if you load SSS Short 0'5 patch, then click on the little wrench in the Spitfire GUI (not the Kontakt wrench) and then click on the dropdown triangle next to "Timed short arctic RTs" and select "Timed short arctic RTs" from the dropdown menu then the sample only plays for as long as you hold down the key (or the sample times out, whichever comes first.) Have you tried this? This is the way you're supposed to get staccato in SSS.

@Ben E

Bless You ! and Thank You so much for this tip.

Now this helped a lot. finally I hear, and can play what I consider Staccato.

I dialed back the release a bit using the 0'5 short patch. and selected 'Timed short artic RTs' , sounds very good, also has a nice response to velocity, I also edited the velocity response curve to taste, mainly to suite my keyboard's velocity setting.

I feel the layering with SCS Staccato sounds more dynamic, and lively, but both are now options.

Cheers,
Muziksculp

 

[jbuhler]

@Ben E

Bless You ! and Thank You so much for this tip.

Now this helped a lot. finally I hear, and can play what I consider Staccato.

I dialed back the release a bit using the 0'5 short patch. and selected 'Timed short artic RTs' , sounds very good, also has a nice response to velocity, I also edited the velocity response curve to taste, mainly to suite my keyboard's velocity setting.

I also feel the layering with SCS Staccato is more dynamic, and lively, but both are now options.

Cheers,
Muziksculp

@Soundbed did mention the "Timed short artic RTs" on the other thread.

Berlin Symphonic Strings

Why do you keep telling people SSS doesn’t have Staccato? Because it's true. Even SA didn't list it in the articulations of SSS.

vi-control.net

 

[muziksculp]

@Soundbed did mention the "Timed short artic RTs" on the other thread.

Berlin Symphonic Strings

Why do you keep telling people SSS doesn’t have Staccato? Because it's true. Even SA didn't list it in the articulations of SSS.

vi-control.net

Oh.. I must have missed reading that post. Thanks for letting me know about it.

And ... I'm going to change the topic of this thread to : How to get a Staccato Short articulation with SSS.

 

[jbuhler]

Oh.. I must have missed reading that post. Thanks for letting me know about it.

And ... I'm going to change the topic of this thread to : How to get a Staccato Short articulation with SSS.

Good call on renaming the post.

I think you weren't convinced by @Soundbed's examples and so you didn't follow up on the functionality of what he was trying to show you.

 

[muziksculp]

Good call on renaming the post.

I think you weren't convinced by @Soundbed's examples and so you didn't follow up on the functionality of what he was trying to show you.

Yes, renaming the post makes more sense now that I know. I think other SSS users might not be aware of this detail, so this will be a helpful post for SSS users, and potential buyers of this library.

 

[babylonwaves]

I’ve just literally made expression maps for SSS. Are the Short 0’5 and Short 1’0 not “Staccatos” then?

as stated before, the definition depends on tempo as well. Maybe that's why SF did choose the length for the name. I think Cinesamples have done this as well. SF haven't done this in newer libs, probably because people didn't understand that it _can_ mean staccato. I've used staccato and spiccato in our expression maps and put the length in brackets. technically that's not fully correct but it seems to bring across what the articulations do.

 

[Mr Greg G]

as stated before, the definition depends on tempo as well.

Exactly, it's like talking about a 0.5s eighth note. It doesn't make any sense. You won't play a staccato note the same way at different tempos. The length will differ.

 

[markleake]

@muziksculp As much as I admire your commitment to this topic (you really can post, and its everywhere!), can I suggest you go and watch the Spitfire videos to take a slight breather? From memory the Spitfire guys specifically show you how to use the shorts in the way described above (make the staccato as long as you want). I can't remember how much time they give it, but I do remember realizing it seems pretty much the main intended purpose of those "longer" short articulations. I've often wondered why they don't have that articulation set that way by default.

I notice this is a technique other developers are starting to use more also, because it's so useful. I think VSL in Synchron String Pro has a very nice detache articulation that does this, for example.

Take a bit of time to learn the library, I suggest. SSS really is wonderful with the shorts.

 

[muziksculp]

Would it make sense if you went back and added an EDIT-paragraph in the posts where you said SSS has no Staccato?

In various other threads, I mean.

That would help potential buyers of the library - first, so they do not mistakingly believe it contains no Staccato, and second, it will help them achieve that articulation (if you link to the description of how it's done)

Yes, I can do that. No problem.

 

[JohnG]

Surprised to read this. Perhaps not in the US? Here in Oz it's commonplace and has been in English music since the middle of the 19th Century at least.

Well, surprise for me! I never heard it as a performer, but overall I've been primarily a vocalist or playing in rock / reggae / not-traditional-orchestral-ensembles; no doubt that's the reason.

Perhaps inexplicably, you just don't hear "staccatissimo" when playing at a fraternity party.

 

[doctoremmet]

Perhaps inexplicably, you just don't hear "staccatissimo" when playing at a fraternity party.

I want this one on a tile

 

[doctoremmet]

 

[jononotbono]

as stated before, the definition depends on tempo as well. Maybe that's why SF did choose the length for the name. I think Cinesamples have done this as well. SF haven't done this in newer libs, probably because people didn't understand that it _can_ mean staccato. I've used staccato and spiccato in our expression maps and put the length in brackets. technically that's not fully correct but it seems to bring across what the articulations do.

When I said "Are the Short 0’5 and Short 1’0 not “Staccatos” then?" I was just simply saying, they are the staccatos.

 

[jononotbono]

I want this one on a tile

You will get it tattooed as a full back piece.

 

[Soundbed]

using only SSS Short 0'5 Articulation.

Here is what you need to do to get it to play Staccato.

load SSS Short 0'5 patch, then click on the little wrench in the Spitfire GUI (not the Kontakt wrench).

Then click on the dropdown triangle next to "Timed short arctic RTs" and select "Timed short arctic RTs" from the dropdown menu then the sample only plays for as long as you hold down the key (or the sample times out, whichever comes first.)

Now you should be able to play a Staccato using SSS.

You might want to select one of the preset velocity response curves in the Spitfire GUI by clicking on the triangle shape, and selecting one of the presets, or editing the curve to create a custom curve that suites your keyboard's velocity setting to get a better dynamic response when playing the Staccato.

... adjusting the velocity curves might be a good idea, I had not thought of that.

If I want a slightly more pronounced staccato note start, I use velocity above 90. If I need that to be quieter then I lower expression.

For the sake of completeness, here's where I had previously mentioned my steps (in a totally unrelated thread), which are pretty much what you wrote as well:

Spitfire Audio Abbey Road One: Orchestral Foundations

It is complete. This is it. You're not buying a subscription. They will add additional things you can buy, maybe. But the product is the product. Even if that was the case, what makes a library complete? It's not a legato. You can still write around that. As @JohnG has, I'm sure.

vi-control.net

I don't know why the RTs are not set to "Timed short arctic RTs" (or even Untimed?) by default. I think the default setting gives people a poor impression of the "shorts" at first.

I also think people get the initial impression that they are "inflexible" and try to go to time stretching extremes and then get frustrated. It's neither clear in the manual nor is it clear in the "inline documentation" on the interface itself afaict. I only happened upon it by exploring the library.

 

[Soundbed]

Yes, that's my understanding too. It's the thing I called the "wedge" above. Not sure what the proper name of the symbol is.

Carrot.

That is not "the definition of détaché." The first sentence of your dime-store definition is actually called grand détaché in which "long bows" are used, which is but one type of détaché. And the last sentence in magic yellow type is horse shit.

And speaking of which, don't put too much stock in the accuracy of how sample libraries label things.

There are different types of détaché, and hybrids also. It can be connected (legato), long bows, not connected (a very light and almost non-existent stop), pushed (tenuto, portato), slow, fast, accented (martelé détaché hybrid, the intensity being indicated by the appropriate articulation symbol and context), et cetera. An on-the-string bowing that changes direction with each note, in forte, in 16ths where for example Q=144—which will be played in the lower third—is just as detaché as other types of détaché.

The base term for the bowing you're looking for is martelé. If you want something less aggressive, it would in essence be a light martelé a.k.a unaccented martelé, which is informally referred to by some string players as "staccato," depending on where you're at on the globe.

But really, staccato is more of a contextual, generic term that includes a range of short-ish lengths with a range of pointedness and bow scratch or lack of same. The bottom third gives you one effect; the top third gives you another, etc. There are also different types of "group staccato," but you can't sample those as single notes.

The most useful type of very short staccato would be sautillé, a spontaneous spiccato (that might be off or right on the borderline of off and on) that kicks in at 16ths right around Q=120 when the player centers the bounce point over the string. The problem is it you can't record just one note's worth. (I was a consultant on two sample libraries and on one of them it was one of our pre-test trials.) The best you can do to simulate it is to put the click at about 180 and ask for a conscious spiccato on 16ths on the bounce point. (N.B., "Spiccato is off-the-string, whether conscious or spontaneous). But if you want those notes on the string, they'll be martelé instead, full or light.

Bowing terms and generic articulation terms end up being a sort of mishmash in various admixtures of usage. How any given isolated note, figure, or whole passage is played at any given point all depends on the style, tempo, dynamic, overall intent, and whatever the conductor and concertmaster determine, but most of these decisions are pretty obvious when the music is well written. The terms don't enter into it much except when they have to.

These aren't all the details, but all the details would be a very long post.

I think it's time for some music.

 

[muziksculp]

I don't know why the RTs are not set to "Timed short arctic RTs" (or even Untimed?) by default. I think the default setting gives people a poor impression of the "shorts" at first.

I also think people get the initial impression that they are "inflexible" and try to go to time stretching extremes and then get frustrated. It's neither clear in the manual nor is it clear in the "inline documentation" on the interface itself afaict. I only happened upon it by exploring the library.

Yes, a bit puzzling why they are not set to 'Timed short RTs' by default.

That's why my first impression when playing these shorts was... Yuk.. what is this ? Not a good first impression, especially I had no clue about the Timed Short RT's settings that were hidden in the GUI.

Well, hopefully this thread will be helpful to many SSS users, or to be users. I wish this topic existed on VI-C when I was struggling with finding a way to play Stacc. with SSS.

 

[jbuhler]

Yes, a bit puzzling why they are not set to 'Timed short RTs' by default.

I think most everyone is puzzled by the decision, but it is standard practice for SF to do this on all articulations in all libraries that have the functionality. (Not all of them do.) The best explanation is that the default presents the full sample. But it's the first thing you should check for the shorts on all of your Kontakt SF libraries.