Fluid tempo track —> Live Orchestra

[AEF]

A critical component to getting mockups to sound more real is micro adjustments of the tempo track.

But if the mockup is to then recorded by a live orchestra, how are we to implement a click track that doesnt feel “squirly” for the musicians/conductor?

what are the solutions to this? or do you forego the micro tempo adjustments for mockups you know will be recorded live, but sacrificing the quality of the mockup that needs to be approved?

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[I like music]

A critical component to getting mockups to sound more real is micro adjustments of the tempo track.

But if the mockup is to then recorded by a live orchestra, how are we to implement a click track that doesnt feel “squirly” for the musicians/conductor?

what are the solutions to this? or do you forego the micro tempo adjustments for mockups you know will be recorded live, but sacrificing the quality of the mockup that needs to be approved?

If I found out a live orchestra were to record one of my pieces, I'd die instantly, of shock and sheer delight. I envy those of you who have this first world problem to think about. Here I am planning my next bank robbery so that I can hire an orchestra to play 2 bars from one of my pieces.

 

[JohnG]

A critical component to getting mockups to sound more real is micro adjustments of the tempo track.

But if the mockup is to then recorded by a live orchestra, how are we to implement a click track that doesnt feel “squirly” for the musicians/conductor?

what are the solutions to this? or do you forego the micro tempo adjustments for mockups you know will be recorded live, but sacrificing the quality of the mockup that needs to be approved?

Solutions:
1. You can use variable clicks, as long as they feel musical. Sometimes if you have a major tempo change or accelerando / ritard. you will subdivide clicks for a bar or two so it's easier for the conductor and players to hear (use quavers instead of crotchets / eighth notes instead of quarters);
2. You can use no clicks but still use streamers and punches (JW used to do this all the time and it was once quite common);
3. You can forego clicks altogether and let the conductor feel through the music.

If you're writing for a game, a music library, or a "library" for a tv show, you might be able to do #3 (no clicks, no streamers), but that means either that you will have to redo your prerecords (if any), or not use pre-records.

I just had to reprint pre-records for a large-scale cue. The orchestra just didn't gel with the clicks, so we turned them off. In that case, it didn't matter because it wasn't strictly to picture. Redoing the pre-records didn't take that long, but that is because there was a pretty clear pulse, though variable, through the piece.

 

[MartinH.]

If you're writing for a game

Careful with games, if (parts of) the music is/are intended to be assembled dynamically at runtime from different pieces and layers, then a fixed tempo clicktrack will be mandatory imho to make everything line up. I doubt there could ever be a situation with high enough budget for a real orchestra but still failing to communicate such important tech requirements (if they even are applicable to the project), but... you never know, so I thought it should be mentioned.

 

[AEF]

If I found out a live orchestra were to record one of my pieces, I'd die instantly, of shock and sheer delight. I envy those of you who have this first world problem to think about. Here I am planning my next bank robbery so that I can hire an orchestra to play 2 bars from one of my pieces.

oh this is just a hypothetical haha

 

[AEF]

seems like the conductor (me) having the click but also using streamers and punches is the best way to handle it. thanks for the responses!

 

[Billy Palmer]

What are streamers and punches?

 

[erica-grace]

do you forego the micro tempo adjustments for mockups you know will be recorded live, but sacrificing the quality of the mockup that needs to be approved?

Question - if you are recording your music with a live orchestra, why does it matter if the mockup has micro tempo changes that help it sound a little better? Isn't it a case of, if your cue is good enough, it won't matter if you have micro tempo changes that help it sound a little better?

 

[AEF]

Question - if you are recording your music with a live orchestra, why does it matter if the mockup has micro tempo changes that help it sound a little better? Isn't it a case of, if your cue is good enough, it won't matter if you have micro tempo changes that help it sound a little better?

i think its bc you are scoring to hit points and timing of picture which were approved by the director. your live cue and mockup would not hit at the same time, which COULD be a disaster.

 

[erica-grace]

Ok, I get it.

Can't you record x-bars @a-tempo, and then x-bars @b-tempo, and then x-bars @c-tempo, and have the music editor cut everything together?

 

[brenneisen]

What are streamers and punches?

 

[JohnG]

Careful with games, if (parts of) the music is/are intended to be assembled dynamically at runtime from different pieces and layers, then a fixed tempo clicktrack will be mandatory imho to make everything line up. I doubt there could ever be a situation with high enough budget for a real orchestra but still failing to communicate such important tech requirements, but... you never know, so I thought it should be mentioned.

While it may be fair to throw the "caution flag," that is not always true of games, Martin, especially if there is a big enough budget for a large orchestra. I conducted a number of pieces this summer for games that had variable tempos, including ritards, accelerandos and abrupt changes, with full orchestra at Abbey Road.

Certainly, when it comes to games, there are many tracks that have to stay in the same tempo and even (alas) even the same key, so of course you should be coordinating with the game team.

 

[JJP]

I think it is important to differentiate between (1) musical accelerandi, ritardandi, and actual tempo changes, and (2) the tempo variations people have recently started doing in mockups where they vary the tempo every bar in a nearly random way to make it feel more "human".

The first can be clicked out or have clicks drop in and out to allow for a conductor to work the changes.

The second are a nightmare when put to a live ensemble and make a simple cue a painful, even disastrous experience to record. The reason is that the click varies in wholly unexpected ways that don't reflect how players push and pull the tempo naturally. It's like telling someone to walk in rhythm but then dictating to them exactly when each foot should hit the ground for every step with slightly random variations that they can't see coming. It's impossible for someone to match.

Plus, that's not the way musicians think of tempo. The tempo or click is steady and then music moves ahead or behind it. The tempo itself doesn't change, rather the music pushes and pulls around it.

If the click is going to be randomly varying all over the place, it's better to have no click at all. Streamers and punches are a great solution, but when that wasn't an option I've even had a screen at the podium so that I can follow the song position line in the ProTools edit window and conduct where the key downbeats land. It's not as nice as having a big streamer, but hey, if you have a big screen, your eyesight isn't too bad, and you know how to properly conduct musicians, it's much more natural than a wonky, random click.

The most important thing when working with live musicians is that variations in the click or tempo have to be musical, not simply frequent and random.

 

[AEF]

I think it is important to differentiate between (1) musical accelerandi, ritardandi, and actual tempo changes, and (2) the tempo variations people have recently started doing in mockups where they vary the tempo every bar in a nearly random way to make it feel more "human".

The first can be clicked out or have clicks drop in and out to allow for a conductor to work the changes.

The second are a nightmare when put to a live ensemble and make a simple cue a painful, even disastrous experience to record. The reason is that the click varies in wholly unexpected ways that don't reflect how players push and pull the tempo naturally. It's like telling someone to walk in rhythm but then dictating to them exactly when each foot should hit the ground for every step with slightly random variations that they can't see coming. It's impossible for someone to match.

Plus, that's not the way musicians think of tempo. The tempo or click is steady and then music moves ahead or behind it. The tempo itself doesn't change, rather the music pushes and pulls around it.

If the click is going to be randomly varying all over the place, it's better to have no click at all. Streamers and punches are a great solution, but when that wasn't an option I've even had a screen at the podium so that I can follow the song position line in the ProTools edit window and conduct where the key downbeats land. It's not as nice as having a big streamer, but hey, if you have a big screen, your eyesight isn't too bad, and you know how to properly conduct musicians, it's much more natural than a wonky, random click.

The most important thing when working with live musicians is that variations in the click or tempo have to be musical, not simply frequent and random.

Thanks for your insight. I have decidedly avoided the “micro tempo changes” as part of my workflow for this very reason.

 

[MartinH.]

While it may be fair to throw the "caution flag," that is not always true of games, Martin, especially if there is a big enough budget for a large orchestra. I conducted a number of pieces this summer for games that had variable tempos, including ritards, accelerandos and abrupt changes, with full orchestra at Abbey Road.

Certainly, when it comes to games, there are many tracks that have to stay in the same tempo and even (alas) even the same key, so of course you should be coordinating with the game team.

Thanks John, I didn't mean to imply it's always the case, but since I see so little talk about FMOD, Wwise etc. around here, I thought it's worth bringing it up. I edited my post to stress that this isn't always a requirement for games.

 

[JohnG]

variations in the click or tempo have to be musical, not simply frequent and random.

Applause