A2 sections vs a3 or a4 for woodwinds and brass / why do a2 sections for strings not work well?

[Justin L. Franks]

I know that having just two players in a strings section isn't considered a good idea, and that you need at least three players to make it sound like a cohesive group instead of just separate players. But a2 sections are common with brass and especially woodwinds. My main woodwinds library (SSW) uses a2 sections for all but a few instruments like the piccolo and contrabassoon. And SSB has several a2 brass sections as well.

What about brass and woodwinds make it acceptable to use a2 sections? And what about string instruments makes it not work well in a2 string sections?

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[InsomniaEmperor]

A2 is a weird configuration if you ask me. Wind parts are typically in threes (four for horns) unless you’re Holst or Mahler and A2 is in a weird spot where it doesn’t have the detail of a soloist nor does it have the ring of an ensemble. There’s a clear difference with a recorded ensemble patch vs stacking solo patches in a chord because the instruments resonate with one another. It does have its place in winds where you can use the Trumpet A2 patch instead of the Trumpet A6 patch for a chord if you find the latter to be bloated.

As for strings, not even chamber strings type of setup has a2 except for double bass. It’s a weird configuration to record that devs would rather record a soloist or a chamber sized group.

 

[O. Martin]

To be able to choose between a single voice or divisi for a section, while keeping a detailed sound, it seems convincing to me to join an a2 part with the corresponding solo instrument or a neighboring instrument.

For example,
- Flutes a2 + Solo Flute or Piccolo or Alto Flute;
- Oboes a2 + Solo Oboe or English Horn;
- Clarinets a2 + Solo Clarinet or Bass Clarinet;
- Bassoons a2 + Solo Bassoon or Contrabassoon.

This is the exact instrumentation of Cinematic Studio Woodwinds. The BBCSO Core I own, instead, uses a3 & solo instruments. It's ok, but to me the ensemble instruments lack a bit of detail.

 

[Justin L. Franks]

As for strings, not even chamber strings type of setup has a2 except for double bass. It’s a weird configuration to record that devs would rather record a soloist or a chamber sized group.

When developing SCS, Spitfire said they wanted to find the smallest sections that still sounded like an ensemble, and they ended up with 4/3/3/3/3.

To be able to choose between a single voice or divisi for a section, while keeping a detailed sound, it seems convincing to me to join an a2 part with the corresponding solo instrument or a neighboring instrument.

For example,
- Flutes a2 + Solo Flute or Piccolo or Alto Flute;
- Oboes a2 + Solo Oboe or English Horn;
- Clarinets a2 + Solo Clarinet or Bass Clarinet;
- Bassoons a2 + Solo Bassoon or Contrabassoon.

This is the exact instrumentation of Cinematic Studio Woodwinds. The BBCSO Core I own, instead, uses a3 & solo instruments. It's ok, but to me the ensemble instruments lack a bit of detail.

SSW also has the a2 + solo format, and I find it works well. I have BBCSO too, but I prefer the overall tone of SSW a bit. I haven't listened to them specifically trying to find how the two versus three players sound though. Since I rarely use them, I actually forgot that BBCSO used a3 sections. I'll have to check that out.

 

[Pixelpoet1985]

Three players is not the standard, it also depends on the orchestra size, the orchestration and the era a specific piece was written at.

As samples already sound bigger as the real thing, smaller patches are very useful. Especially on brass playing in a chordal style.

 

[Corda1983]

It’s mostly a combination of balance and harmony.

Woodwinds and brass have a lot more power and presence than strings, per player. A single trumpet can overpower a whole string section with ease. So you need a lot more string players to balance out two brass players, and even two wind players. Two strings playing in unison also tends to sound odd - more separate than say two trumpets or two clarinets, which creates a more homogenous, uniform tone.

As for the a2 section size, there’s a few things to say about that. Firstly, with woodwinds, the a2 sections are not uncommon, particularly in classical music. In addition, a lot of the time woodwind is written for a2 and a higher or lower instrument as a third. Two flutes and a piccolo for example, or two oboes and a cor anglais (with bass clarinet and contrabassoon being common third instruments too). So what may appear woodwinds in pairs may not always be the case.

In the case of the sample world, it can also just be a cost thing too - two players is cheaper than three! I usually prefer a2 patches to a3 when using samples - they tend to cut through better but still have depth and weight. BBCSO has a3 and it usually sounds a little heavy to me. EWHO has a2 and a3 in many cases but I usually prefer the a2 patches.

 

[Justin L. Franks]

Two strings playing in unison also tends to sound odd - more separate than say two trumpets or two clarinets, which creates a more homogenous, uniform tone.

This is primarily what I am asking...why do a2 sections work well for woodwinds and brass, but not for strings? I would think that the same issues that make two string players in unison sound odd, would also apply to brass and woodwinds. But they don't seem to.

 

[Corda1983]

This is primarily what I am asking...why do a2 sections work well for woodwinds and brass, but not for strings? I would think that the same issues that make two string players in unison sound odd, would also apply to brass and woodwinds. But they don't seem to.

There’s a lot more body in woodwinds. The way they resonate, the volume, the frequency response. If you have 16 clarinets playing in unison, it would sound dense, very mid-range and be incredibly loud by comparison to the rest of the orchestra. So it’s just an acoustics thing really - 2 flutes or clarinets take up quite a lot of sonic space and have an evenness of tone. Strings are a lot thinner and vibrate in such a way that make them sound more exposed and fragile, so you need more of them to smooth that effect over.

Strings by themselves tend to sound a bit “solo” and disconnected from the orchestra. A small string section of 3-4 players can actually sound quite full - but a string orchestra of say 12-16 players (let’s say 5 violins, 4 violins, 3 violas, 3 cellos and a bass) just would not balance with an orchestra containing even 1 of each woodwind or brass very easily.

 

[NoamL]

a2 is fine for winds, horns and trumpets and is found all over the symphonic repertoire. the solo sound has a lot of body (even for an instrument like oboe or tpt), so they blend nicely.

A solo string player has a very pointed sound. Like a sharpened pencil vs a magic marker. The issue is not necessarily tuning, it's that the sounds won't really combine, it'll sound like a duet where the two are accidentally assigned the same note.

 

[prodigalson]

This is primarily what I am asking...why do a2 sections work well for woodwinds and brass, but not for strings? I would think that the same issues that make two string players in unison sound odd, would also apply to brass and woodwinds. But they don't seem to.

Part of the issue is intonation. It’s harder for 2 string players to stay in tune than it is for woodwinds or brass. Once you start going to 3,4 players etc. the little differences in intonation start to combine into a natural chorussing that leads to the sound we know of a string section.

 

[StutzvH]

I use BBCSO for woodwinds and don’t even have the a3 patches in my template. I find they sound too thick and lack clarity. I just voice using the solo instruments. Flutes a3 + a Piccolo or Oboe a3 plus a Cor Anglais just sounds too busy to me.

The setup in SSW seems much more logical - Flutes a2 + a Piccolo, Oboe a2 + a Cor Anglais, etc.

I regret not grabbing it at 50% off last year!

 

[Justin L. Franks]

I use BBCSO for woodwinds and don’t even have the a3 patches in my template. I find they sound too thick and lack clarity. I just voice using the solo instruments. Flutes a3 + a Piccolo or Oboe a3 plus a Cor Anglais just sounds too busy to me.

The setup in SSW seems much more logical - Flutes a2 + a Piccolo, Oboe a2 + a Cor Anglais, etc.

I regret not grabbing it at 50% off last year!

SSW also has solos for most of the instruments, so you can make your own a3 ensembles if that's what you want. I pretty much always stick with two though. I do like to add the alto flute to the a2 flutes sometimes though. It restricts the range a bit, but it has an interesting sound.