What makes this piece of music work?

[Jacobmb_Music]

Hello!

I was analyzing this piece of music "Harvest Dawn" from the video game, Oblivion:



I am trying to figure out what makes this work structurally and developmentally.

At first, I hear a clearly identifyable motif in the harp. Now, I assume this is going to be the "main theme" - now at :21 seconds, we get into a contrasting melody and it still make sense.

Normally, in order for a piece of music to be cohesive, you expect there to be some sort of repetition of the main theme, but that initial harp motif doesn't even come back until 1:50.

I don't understand how the composer decided on their next moves that begin at :43. I don't understand how it works. It's like an entirely different melody, but somehow it fits? What is the logic?

At 1:07, we are clearly getting into the high point of the piece, but I don't hear anything that I recognize before. I thought the high point of a piece had to be some kind of big presentation of the "main theme." And yet, I hear multiple melodies happening, something in the high woodwinds along with something in the strings.

Follow up question for 1:07 - 1:50. I really like this texture with the horn chords, string movement, and woodwinds up top. Is this an example of counterpoint? How did the composer make the decisions on what line would move when?

Any help with this analysis would be great!

Click to read more...

 

[Henu]

I don't understand how the composer decided on their next moves that begin at :43. I don't understand how it works.

Because he got the idea? I mean, isn't it just "another part" and that's it? As in, something he composed after the first part in order to move on musically. Could you elaborate a bit what is there to not understand, when you say you don't understand how it works?

 

[Jacobmb_Music]

Because he got the idea? I mean, isn't it just "another part" and that's it? As in, something he composed after the first part in order to move on musically. Could you elaborate a bit what is there to not understand, when you say you don't understand how it works?

It's about cohesiveness - I was taught that in order to have cohesiveness in a piece of music, you need a main idea that repeats and most likely is stated again with more energy at the most climactic part of the music. You know, A-A-B-A form, that kind of thing.

One could come up with "just another part" of their song or piece, but it could sound completely disconnected and/or unrelated to the core of the piece.

I want to know how the work manages to sound cohesive seemingly without presenting a main idea or using a main idea in the "climactic" part of the music.

 

[Rob]

there's also that we tend to give meaning to what we hear "a posteriori", finding sense even in material that hardly has some sense...

 

[blaggins]

Would it be fair to say that (given this is a game soundtrack) avoiding repetition of a strong (melodic/memorable) motive is actually desirable? Developing along "related" but not "too related" lines is a good idea, reason being of course that as a player you are likely to hear this sucker looped about 500x as you explore, and it's better to not have something for your brain to latch on to, that way it's easier to hide the repetitiveness.

 

[NekujaK]

I'm not an expert in video game music, but am under the impression the background music is made up of multiple segments that can be mixed and matched to follow the flow of the game in real time, in response to decisions made by the player.

Therefore, what we're listening to here may just be an arbitrary assemblage of such segments, and when taken out of the game context, may indeed seem unconventional or unexpected.

I don't know... just a thought.

 

[SimonCharlesHanna]

I'm not an expert in video game music, but am under the impression the background music is made up of multiple segments that can be mixed and matched to follow the flow of the game in real time, in response to decisions made by the player.

Therefore, what we're listening to here may just be an arbitrary assemblage of such segments, and when taken out of the game context, may indeed seem unconventional or unexpected.

I don't know... just a thought.

not in Oblivion. Tracks play once and then finish.

Would it be fair to say that (given this is a game soundtrack) avoiding repetition of a strong (melodic/memorable) motive is actually desirable? Developing along "related" but not "too related" lines is a good idea, reason being of course that as a player you are likely to hear this sucker looped about 500x as you explore, and it's better to not have something for your brain to latch on to, that way it's easier to hide the repetitiveness.

If what you said were true RE repetition, notable motifs etc, every JRPG (or Zelda etc) OST would be fucked - no they are often considered the best OSTs in video games. This is very western think.

At 1:07, we are clearly getting into the high point of the piece, but I don't hear anything that I recognize before. I thought the high point of a piece had to be some kind of big presentation of the "main theme." And yet, I hear multiple melodies happening, something in the high woodwinds along with something in the strings.

Yes that something you hear in the strings is a variation on the 1st theme. It's certainly not the centrepiece (for some of it). I am also hearing the outline of the 1st motif in the high part but its elongated - i'd need to properly analyse to confirm. The other thing to consider is that a piece of music can certainly have a B theme. Another option to consider is that maybe the dirty perv just came up with other ideas and smacked it in because he liked it - it's up to us to decide if we think that makes the piece better or worse I guess?

 

[Stringtree]

I think it's the entreaty phrased by the harp. "Come inside." The development here doesn't really do development, but adds color and diversity in the same key.

Now, Morrowind's theme has a more comprehensible dramatic arc. It's like a paragraph of statements that tell a story.

This isn't bad. It's a palette. I think that's why it works. @R.G. said it well. The thing hangs together.

 

[blaggins]

If what you said were true RE repetition, notable motifs etc, every JRPG (or Zelda etc) OST would be fucked - no they are often considered the best OSTs in video games. This is very western think.

Fair enough and good point on JRPGs, those soundtracks are beloved indeed. Actually it brings to mind maybe my favorite game soundtrack of all time, Warcraft 2, which is actually very strongly thematic and only had a few fairly short tracks which I probably heard 100's of times and still love.

But there is room for multiple schools of thought here, right? At least it is my experience (being an avid gamer when I was a kid, wish I had more time for it these days...) that at least some of my most loved soundtracks were great for setting a mood, but weren't necessarily thematic. Age of Empires, Pillars of Eternity, a lot of the WoW music (not the tavern stuff mind you), those come to mind. I'd probably have to give them another listen to be sure.

 

[SimonCharlesHanna]

Fair enough and good point on JRPGs, those soundtracks are beloved indeed. Actually it brings to mind maybe my favorite game soundtrack of all time, Warcraft 2, which is actually very strongly thematic and only had a few fairly short tracks which I probably heard 100's of times and still love.

But there is room for multiple schools of thought here, right? At least it is my experience (being an avid gamer when I was a kid, wish I had more time for it these days...) that at least some of my most loved soundtracks were great for setting a mood, but weren't necessarily thematic. Age of Empires, Pillars of Eternity, a lot of the WoW music (not the tavern stuff mind you), those come to mind. I'd probably have to give them another listen to be sure.

It's been a while since I played any of those games (never played WoW tho) but I don't know if I would consider them thematically understated? One obvious one that comes to mind is RDR2 - one of the best game ever made imo, with one of the most boringly implemented OSTs I've ever encountered.

There's always room for moody atmospheric music but if that's all an OST is - understated, minimal, unidentifiable, well...we're going to be calling that "AI music" soon. Oblivion/Skyrim are drenched in mood but still have loads of character and motivic interest. I am not sure that it has to be "either, or".

The fact that a 1 minute loop from a Donkey Kong game from the 90s is still being talked about shows the power of strong musical direction

https://www.ign.com/articles/the-most-emotional-video-game-music-in-the-unlikeliest-of-places

Sorry we moved off topic here a bit. I got triggered because my last game OST was mutilated to the point that I have disowned it.

 

[Sean Linge]

As far as structure goes, I would label it roughly like this:

A at 0:00
Transition to B starting at 0:43
B at 1:03
Return to A at 1:50
Coda at 2:11

Essentially ternary form with a coda. The transition seems to be what may have disoriented you.

 

[blaggins]

Sorry we moved off topic here a bit. I got triggered because my last game OST was mutilated to the point that I have disowned it.

No worries, I think the discussion is interesting! But we can def get back on track for the OPs sake. Sorry to hear that about your soundtrack.

 

[Jacobmb_Music]

It's been a while since I played any of those games (never played WoW tho) but I don't know if I would consider them thematically understated? One obvious one that comes to mind is RDR2 - one of the best game ever made imo, with one of the most boringly implemented OSTs I've ever encountered.

There's always room for moody atmospheric music but if that's all an OST is - understated, minimal, unidentifiable, well...we're going to be calling that "AI music" soon. Oblivion/Skyrim are drenched in mood but still have loads of character and motivic interest. I am not sure that it has to be "either, or".

The fact that a 1 minute loop from a Donkey Kong game from the 90s is still being talked about shows the power of strong musical direction

https://www.ign.com/articles/the-most-emotional-video-game-music-in-the-unlikeliest-of-places

Sorry we moved off topic here a bit. I got triggered because my last game OST was mutilated to the point that I have disowned it.

Thanks for the discussion! Just chiming in to say I agree that there is room in video game music for both strong themes and more atmospheric, less traditionally memorable themes. Our Legend of Zeldas, Marios, Final Fantasies, etc are absolutely filled to the brim with iconic earworms.

The music of say, Skyrim, Oblivion, or even Morrowind is a bit less thematically based and more textural. In fact, if you take the theme of Far Horizons or Ancient Stones from Skyrim and isolate them on piano, they truly come off as sort of boring melodies. It seems to be the atmosphere and texture that brings out the potential of the material.

This is partly why I started this topic. I learned to compose many years ago by exclusively using carefully crafted, interesting themes, as the core - such that my music has seemed to rely heavily on melodic material to even be good. I also have always been fixated on repetition of the melody because I am stuck in the mindset that the listener needs this in order to follow the music.

I am studying very closely the ambient music of Skyrim and Oblivion at the moment in an attempt to enhance my perspective on ways to make music good and cohesive through texture or other devices to allow the not-so-interesting material to shine.

 

[Jacobmb_Music]

As far as structure goes, I would label it roughly like this:

A at 0:00
Transition to B starting at 0:43
B at 1:03
Return to A at 1:50
Coda at 2:11

Essentially ternary form with a coda. The transition seems to be what may have disoriented you.

That makes sense! I have never been great at transitions. Thanks for the analysis!

 

[Jacobmb_Music]

It is a type of contrapuntal texture, yes. In this case sort of a modern interpretation of medieval modalism, so, not authentic, and that is fine.

____________________

I really appreciate your write up! Thanks for taking the time. Would you be able to expand more on the statement above? I am not well-versed in the technicalities of counterpoint, so I am not sure what modalism would mean in the context of counterpoint (I know what it means harmonically) - I'd also like to know more about the medieval part as it relates to counterpoint.

Thanks again!

 

[SimonCharlesHanna]

The music of say, Skyrim, Oblivion, or even Morrowind is a bit less thematically based and more textural. In fact, if you take the theme of Far Horizons or Ancient Stones from Skyrim and isolate them on piano, they truly come off as sort of boring melodies. It seems to be the atmosphere and texture that brings out the potential of the material.

mm I am listening to Far Horizon right now actually and I can't agree with your take. The textures are fantastic and evocative sure, but that's one part in the whole presentation that makes it great. I wouldn't confuse straightforwardness or simple as being "less thematic". The opening 1.5 min (the whole song in fact) of Far Horizon is heavily structured motivically - don't take that for granted and think you can just be vibey/texture focused and achieve the same effect.

No worries, I think the discussion is interesting! But we can def get back on track for the OPs sake. Sorry to hear that about your soundtrack.

thanks - it's been quite challenging time tbh.

 

[Jacobmb_Music]

mm I am listening to Far Horizon right now actually and I can't agree with your take. The textures are fantastic and evocative sure, but that's one part in the whole presentation that makes it great. I wouldn't confuse straightforwardness or simple as being "less thematic". The opening 1.5 min (the whole song in fact) of Far Horizon is heavily structured motivically - don't take that for granted and think you can just be vibey/texture focused and achieve the same effect.


thanks - it's been quite challenging time tbh.

I guess saying "boring" was probably a bit of mischaracterization on my part for what I was trying to communicate. They are indeed pleasant melodies, but I would say they are really quite a bit more simple in terms of melody.

I think I just wanted to emphasize that I think the simplicity of the material can be made to shine so much more effectively with good atmospheric and textural enhancements. I myself am guilty of overcomplicating things, so this principle is something I am focusing on at the moment.