Slow movement for Clarinet and Orchestra
- Thread starter muk
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OP
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muk
Senior Member
Thanks for your feedback! I agree that the transition at 2:30 is weak. Maybe I can come up with something a bit more organic and interesting there.
I used VSL Dimension Strings here (the rest of the orchestra is VSL SE and SE+). So the library is a good one and is not the problem
I invested a lot of time in polishing the strings. Still they sound worse than the winds on which I worked much less. Somehow I just can't get them right.
If you have any tipps on how the strings-sound could be improved I'd really appreciate that. As for the workflow, I played everything in (each section divided in two groups) using the legato patch and the TEC breath controller. After that I edited each single note, chose a fitting articulation, and altered the cc 1 data where necessary.
I used VSL Dimension Strings here (the rest of the orchestra is VSL SE and SE+). So the library is a good one and is not the problem
I invested a lot of time in polishing the strings. Still they sound worse than the winds on which I worked much less. Somehow I just can't get them right.If you have any tipps on how the strings-sound could be improved I'd really appreciate that. As for the workflow, I played everything in (each section divided in two groups) using the legato patch and the TEC breath controller. After that I edited each single note, chose a fitting articulation, and altered the cc 1 data where necessary.
Erik
Senior Member
Muk,
As re-peat would maybe say here: it is the source. Although VSL DS has certainly its merits, the overall sound of sec these strings can be quite thin especially the violins (Saxer did some good jobs here with DS however). Have you considered to use them as a layer on top of another strings? They can give a fantastic definition to string sections.
Furthermore you might try out different verb settings: to me it sounds rather dry and you track could use also some more depth.
Soundwise you could try adding ER's and/or a dynamic EQ pluging (like TB_Fix, a Toneboosters one). Is the clarinet also from VSL SE? Around 2:06 and later on it doesn't sound very natural, I hear some cut-off notes here and there.
Hope this will help you further...
As re-peat would maybe say here: it is the source. Although VSL DS has certainly its merits, the overall sound of sec these strings can be quite thin especially the violins (Saxer did some good jobs here with DS however). Have you considered to use them as a layer on top of another strings? They can give a fantastic definition to string sections.
Furthermore you might try out different verb settings: to me it sounds rather dry and you track could use also some more depth.
Soundwise you could try adding ER's and/or a dynamic EQ pluging (like TB_Fix, a Toneboosters one). Is the clarinet also from VSL SE? Around 2:06 and later on it doesn't sound very natural, I hear some cut-off notes here and there.
Hope this will help you further...
OP
OP
muk
Senior Member
Hi Erik
You're certainly right about reverb and depth. I like to keep it rather dry, but it may be too dry here. I'm still experimenting with stage placement and reverb and have a lot to learn in that regard.
Kind of you to say that it might be the source. But I'm uncertain. If I can't make DS sound quite right, will I be better at others? I have rather the impression that I am not using it to it's full potential. I can try to layer it with VSL Orchestral Strings (the ones that come in VSL SE) and see whether that's an improvement.
You're also right about the clarinet. But here I feel it's a limitation of the tool at my disposal. The clarinet is also from VSL SE+. As you could hear I'm missing some crucial articulations (fast legato!) to pul this part off more convincingly.
You're certainly right about reverb and depth. I like to keep it rather dry, but it may be too dry here. I'm still experimenting with stage placement and reverb and have a lot to learn in that regard.
Kind of you to say that it might be the source. But I'm uncertain. If I can't make DS sound quite right, will I be better at others? I have rather the impression that I am not using it to it's full potential. I can try to layer it with VSL Orchestral Strings (the ones that come in VSL SE) and see whether that's an improvement.
You're also right about the clarinet. But here I feel it's a limitation of the tool at my disposal. The clarinet is also from VSL SE+. As you could hear I'm missing some crucial articulations (fast legato!) to pul this part off more convincingly.
Stephen Rees
Senior Member
I don't feel skilled enough with VSL to offer any specific comments beyond the excellent advice given above, but I did just want to say that I thought this was skilfully programmed.
I like the strings personally, and thought the clarinet part was very credible.
It would be a good idea to play around with the production to see if you can get an overall sense of space that is more pleasing to you, but you may still find you like the space you have created here the best. That comes down to personal taste I think.
Look forward to hearing more of your work
I like the strings personally, and thought the clarinet part was very credible.
It would be a good idea to play around with the production to see if you can get an overall sense of space that is more pleasing to you, but you may still find you like the space you have created here the best. That comes down to personal taste I think.
Look forward to hearing more of your work
Nice composition. Here are a few comments. Notice that I am listening on my laptop speakers, so take these with a grain of salt.
0:08 the lower strings accompaniment is little bit loud, focus shifts away from melody.
0:18 woodwinds enter and play at a higher octave in unison with the violin melody, so there is a jump upwards. Should they be little more in the background? The melody jumps back down when the clarinets starts.
0:23 the see-saw of the violins could flow with the clarinet melody. I think it could benefit from more dynamic treatment. < > Now the endings feel a little abrupt.
0:49 beautiful
1:09 the repetition of phrase with the same dynamics in the strings. Softer on the second time?
2:04 clarinet plays a downward arpeggio. Is the strings chord correct i.e. same as clarinet?
2:30 feels like a new section is starting, but then there is a sudden cadence that feels stylistically different from the rest of the piece.
4:14 Harmony is a little strange for this style.High strings play the I-chord, when the woods and bass play V-chord.
Good programming and beautiful theme. Enjoyed listening to this.
-M
0:08 the lower strings accompaniment is little bit loud, focus shifts away from melody.
0:18 woodwinds enter and play at a higher octave in unison with the violin melody, so there is a jump upwards. Should they be little more in the background? The melody jumps back down when the clarinets starts.
0:23 the see-saw of the violins could flow with the clarinet melody. I think it could benefit from more dynamic treatment. < > Now the endings feel a little abrupt.
0:49 beautiful
1:09 the repetition of phrase with the same dynamics in the strings. Softer on the second time?
2:04 clarinet plays a downward arpeggio. Is the strings chord correct i.e. same as clarinet?
2:30 feels like a new section is starting, but then there is a sudden cadence that feels stylistically different from the rest of the piece.
4:14 Harmony is a little strange for this style.High strings play the I-chord, when the woods and bass play V-chord.
Good programming and beautiful theme. Enjoyed listening to this.
-M
Guy Bacos
Senior Member
I think musically it has some nice ideas, but at the same time, and sorry for being this direct, I want to say: Wake me up when it's over. Sometimes we hear in our head the LSO playing gorgeous sounds while the mock up isn't doing so. This is what's tricky when re-creating classical styles like these. I don't think the problem is, how thick the strings sound, I mean an old string quartet recording of 1940, we will still hear the expression convincingly despite the thin crappy sound. I would work more on the strings, improve its sound, programming, attacks, dynamics, expression, contrasts, EQ, etc until it has life of its own, without the clarinet. Maybe it's a bit ambitious for the moment, something shorter would give you more time to refine the sound. Thanks for sharing.
synergy543
Senior Member
Muk, I think you could add some more reverb and phrasing dynamics which might help. Something (broken link removed) maybe.
OP
OP
muk
Senior Member
Hey Guy, wake up, it's over. The strings are lifeless (that's what I meant in my first comment. The sound/timbre I find suitable for the kind of music). They play the right notes at the right time (more or less), but it's not an interpretation.
Probably that's just a matter of investing even more time in them, or of more experience. What puzzles me a bit is that I find the winds pretty decent, and that didn't even take half of the time I spent on the strings. Even the exposed clarinet was done in much less time (and apart from some shortcomings in the articulations department I think it keeps up well).
Anyway, seems like I just have to learn more about programming strings.
Thank you synergy, that's an improvement. Would you mind sharing what kind of reverb tail you used?
Probably that's just a matter of investing even more time in them, or of more experience. What puzzles me a bit is that I find the winds pretty decent, and that didn't even take half of the time I spent on the strings. Even the exposed clarinet was done in much less time (and apart from some shortcomings in the articulations department I think it keeps up well).
Anyway, seems like I just have to learn more about programming strings.
Thank you synergy, that's an improvement. Would you mind sharing what kind of reverb tail you used?
Saxer
Senior Member
i personally miss dynamic in a 'musical' way.
there are. too many points. where it sounds. as if the conductor. drops his arms. complete down.
it's not easy to use the breath controller in a slow tempo. i try to keep the diaphragmatic tension and when i am out of air i breath fast and close the gap in the cc-curve by mouse later. that way it's possible to connect longer phrases. at the end of phrases i 'blow longer than i play' to keep the volume for the natural release time of the strings (that's what the hornberg breath controller can do itself).
if you put in tension you will hear it. you could often see me here with a read head pumping air into the TEControl :lol:
music and arrangement is wonderful.
there are. too many points. where it sounds. as if the conductor. drops his arms. complete down.
it's not easy to use the breath controller in a slow tempo. i try to keep the diaphragmatic tension and when i am out of air i breath fast and close the gap in the cc-curve by mouse later. that way it's possible to connect longer phrases. at the end of phrases i 'blow longer than i play' to keep the volume for the natural release time of the strings (that's what the hornberg breath controller can do itself).
if you put in tension you will hear it. you could often see me here with a read head pumping air into the TEControl :lol:
music and arrangement is wonderful.
synergy543
Senior Member
What. Saxer. said.
muk, I just posted a (broken link removed) (I had to rush out before and didn't get to check the upload). I used Altiverb with Teldex and Lexicon Random Hall. But the reverbs don't really matter and just about any good reverb will do. Its the added phrasing that's much more important. Of course its better to do it in the mix rather than in post as I did but I think you'll get the idea.
You can probably just do this mixing with CC11 or volume as I did. However, the question is where do you do it? If you do it on each instrument (as orchestral players do), its 10 times as much work. Plus, they won't all necessarily match in the end, as you don't have the advantage real players do of listening to each other as you play. So an alternative is do so some mixing with each instrument CC11 and then also add some overall dynamics (as I did) on the stems. That would be my suggestion. Thus, you could treat the strings and the clarinet separately (as I couldn't do).
muk, I just posted a (broken link removed) (I had to rush out before and didn't get to check the upload). I used Altiverb with Teldex and Lexicon Random Hall. But the reverbs don't really matter and just about any good reverb will do. Its the added phrasing that's much more important. Of course its better to do it in the mix rather than in post as I did but I think you'll get the idea.
You can probably just do this mixing with CC11 or volume as I did. However, the question is where do you do it? If you do it on each instrument (as orchestral players do), its 10 times as much work. Plus, they won't all necessarily match in the end, as you don't have the advantage real players do of listening to each other as you play. So an alternative is do so some mixing with each instrument CC11 and then also add some overall dynamics (as I did) on the stems. That would be my suggestion. Thus, you could treat the strings and the clarinet separately (as I couldn't do).
HardyP
Senior Member
Synergy, thanks for posting this screencast -
really great proof for everyone, that even dynamics on stemps adds so much to bring a good musical idea to life...
And this took only few minutes, I guess.
OP
OP
muk
Senior Member
Tension and phrasing is missing/lacking here, that's right. I'll scrutinize your Dimension Strings test to see how you shaped your wonderful performance. Instead of fiddling about forever with cc curves and note values it's maybe best to play the strings in anew. I guess if the performance was better to start with there wouldn't be as much tweaking afterwards.
Just a quick question: do you play everything with a legato patch (and maybe staccato where shorts are necessary), or do you switch articulations when playing? I used only legato when playing in and tweaked the articulations afterwards. I used a lot of dynamic samples, crescendi, pfp etc. and different vibrato patches. But, well, if the phrasing is wrong in the performance that doesn't help much. And unlike Guy I'm no midi wizard who can bring something alive in the piano roll, so it should really be something there in the performance.
Thank you synergy, I'll give your example a thorough listen when I'm back home. Adding more dynamics to the stems is a very good suggestion.
Just a quick question: do you play everything with a legato patch (and maybe staccato where shorts are necessary), or do you switch articulations when playing? I used only legato when playing in and tweaked the articulations afterwards. I used a lot of dynamic samples, crescendi, pfp etc. and different vibrato patches. But, well, if the phrasing is wrong in the performance that doesn't help much. And unlike Guy I'm no midi wizard who can bring something alive in the piano roll, so it should really be something there in the performance.
Thank you synergy, I'll give your example a thorough listen when I'm back home. Adding more dynamics to the stems is a very good suggestion.
