Piano Part with Diamond Notehead - Anyone?

[Zedcars]

Hello,

I'm hoping someone with knowledge of extended piano techniques might be able to help me.

I'm currently studying a score which has the following piano part:



Does anybody know how one would perform this? It's 11 bars repeated from the beginning.

I have Kurt Stone's book Music Notation in the Twentieth Century which suggests the following:



How would silent depression of D work when it's supposed to be tremolo? Is it D, or is it just random notes around that area?

Many thanks,
Darren

Click to read more...

 

[wing]

That's interesting and quite unusual. I think the clear diamond notehead means to softly press the key down so the note is not heard but the hammers are up allowing that note to sympathetically resonate, but that doesn't really explain the tremolo... "both hands very low rumble" - maybe it means to quickly press down the key in the lightest way possible so it doesn't sound the pitch, but it creates a kind of atmospheric effect with a resonant D-ness? I don't own an acoustic piano to test this theory haha.

 

[Zedcars]

That's interesting and quite unusual. I think the clear diamond notehead means to softly press the key down so the note is not heard but the hammers are up allowing that note to sympathetically resonate, but that doesn't really explain the tremolo... "both hands very low rumble" - maybe it means to quickly press down the key in the lightest way possible so it doesn't sound the pitch, but it creates a kind of atmospheric effect with a resonant D-ness? I don't own an acoustic piano to test this theory haha.

Ah, thanks — I think you might be on to something. I just tried on my own upright piano and I can press a key down silently with the sustain pedal down, then still tap it rapidly (while it is still held down) and have the tapping noises and vibrations agitate and affect the held note to make it vibrate softly. So the hammers aren't striking the piano strings at all; the strings are being agitated by the rapid tapping transferred through the piano body.

I may be incorrect with this, but that does seem to work as a subtle effect.

By the way, I should have mentioned but this is from the opening of the 'Shark Theme' by John Williams from his 'Suite from Jaws'.

My second follow up question would be how can I simulate this with samples/effects/audio modelling? Can Pianoteq do it?

 

[moon]

My interpretation of that notation is for the player to tremolo on the lowest keys. The notehead is on D simply for legibility - it's the middle of the staff. The important part is the note length.

I seem to recall that John Williams is a jazz guy. This kind of notation is common in rhythm section charts to quickly show rhythmic values. The chord names (or playing directions in this case) are given so the player can make their own voicing decisions while still hitting rhythmic figures with the group.

 

[wing]

Ah, thanks — I think you might be on to something. I just tried on my own upright piano and I can press a key down silently with the sustain pedal down, then still tap it rapidly (while it is still held down) and have the tapping noises and vibrations agitate and affect the held note to make it vibrate softly. So the hammers aren't striking the piano strings at all; the strings are being agitated by the rapid tapping transferred through the piano body.

I may be incorrect with this, but that does seem to work as a subtle effect.

Yeah who knows, that sounds interesting and I wish I had an acoustic piano to hear it for myself! I wonder if any such sample libraries exist with that kind of thing?

Looking at this video performance of the piece in question, in the intro you can briefly see the piano player reaching inside the piano, which was going to be my other guess originally - because diamond noteheads are often used for harmonics, I wonder if it's also some combination where the left hand is silently tapping the D to lift the hammer and create a sense of movement to agitate the strings, while the right hand reaches in and lightly touches the string to intensify a harmonic resonance? It's so quick and his left hand is blocked from view but that's my guess. Listening to this interpretation, it seems like the piano isn't really playing any notes at all, but rather creating a vibrational rumble, so I think we might be onto something...

also, what a theme. so good hearing it performed by a live orchestra!

 

[Zedcars]

My interpretation of that notation is for the player to tremolo on the lowest keys. The notehead is on D simply for legibility - it's the middle of the staff. The important part is the note length.

I seem to recall that John Williams is a jazz guy. This kind of notation is common in rhythm section charts to quickly show rhythmic values. The chord names (or playing directions in this case) are given so the player can make their own voicing decisions while still hitting rhythmic figures with the group.

Good point. Yes, could be that. I did think the D3 (middle C:C4) was too high since he’s asking for a low rumble.

 

[moon]

Good point. Yes, could be that. I did think the D3 (middle C:C4) was too high since he’s asking for a low rumble.

I think this recording solidly points to it being as I said - you can hear the piano playing all the way at the bottom of the keyboard. Plus it's the LSO with John Williams conducting!

 

[Zedcars]

Yeah who knows, that sounds interesting and I wish I had an acoustic piano to hear it for myself! I wonder if any such sample libraries exist with that kind of thing?

Looking at this video performance of the piece in question, in the intro you can briefly see the piano player reaching inside the piano, which was going to be my other guess originally - because diamond noteheads are often used for harmonics, I wonder if it's also some combination where the left hand is silently tapping the D to lift the hammer and create a sense of movement to agitate the strings, while the right hand reaches in and lightly touches the string to intensify a harmonic resonance? It's so quick and his left hand is blocked from view but that's my guess. Listening to this interpretation, it seems like the piano isn't really playing any notes at all, but rather creating a vibrational rumble, so I think we might be onto something...

also, what a theme. so good hearing it performed by a live orchestra!

Great catch. Yes, that must be it. Seeing a performer reach inside the piano definitely suggests plucking the piano wires. I guess exact pitches are not necessarily possible when plucking the wires so that’s why pitches haven’t been notated.

 

[Zedcars]

I think this recording solidly points to it being as I said - you can hear the piano playing all the way at the bottom of the keyboard. Plus it's the LSO with John Williams conducting!

Ah, gosh. If only I had John’s mobile number then I could text him! Haha

Seems that might be nearer the mark then.

 

[Zedcars]

I think this recording solidly points to it being as I said - you can hear the piano playing all the way at the bottom of the keyboard. Plus it's the LSO with John Williams conducting!

Mind you, I’m not convinced that sound is being produced with the keyboard, rather than say rubbing the piano wires. I think I need to see a video of him conducting with a view of the pianist.

 

[wing]

I think this recording solidly points to it being as I said - you can hear the piano playing all the way at the bottom of the keyboard. Plus it's the LSO with John Williams conducting!

I guess my confusion with that is - if the keys are actually playing even at the lowest notes, wouldn't we hear the hammers articulated more, even at a soft volume? Even this original recording sounds more like the strings are being vibrated a different way without ever actually being struck by the hammers. Also if he wanted it lower than that D I would think an 15vb sign would do...

No matter the interpretation, it sure is cool. Agree, wish we could just text JW to ask lol

 

[mducharme]

Notation for these types of extended techniques is not standardized. The general rule when writing pieces that use such techniques is to have a page of front matter (the front section of the score that has material such as the instrument list) which describes the techniques that are called for in the score and explains how to perform them, as many performers would not know.

Many pianists would not automatically know what that symbol means, and the text description is not sufficient to explain it.

It might be that Williams has worked with a certain pianist enough times that they know what he is asking for, but if this is a Hal Leonard publication, I would expect them to have some explanation.

 

[moon]

Just to add - it's my understanding that the diamond notehead for harmonics is smaller. The notehead used in the example here is a pitchless whole note. Below, you can see two examples from the books of some very popular musicals. This is an extension of slash notation rather than a specific playing style - the other markings around the note tell the player what notes to use, but the notehead itself is strictly a rhythmic device.

 

[moon]

Notation for these types of extended techniques is not standardized. The general rule when writing pieces that use such techniques is to have a page of front matter (the front section of the score that has material such as the instrument list) which describes the techniques that are called for in the score and explains how to perform them, as many performers would not know.

Many pianists would not automatically know what that symbol means, and the text description is not sufficient to explain it.

It might be that Williams has worked with a certain pianist enough times that they know what he is asking for, but if this is a Hal Leonard publication, I would expect them to have some explanation.

I'd disagree with your assertion that it's unclear notation. It may be less familiar to classical musicians who are used to only playing exactly what's on the page, but to jazz, pop, and theatre people, this notation is everywhere.

 

[mducharme]

I'd disagree with your assertion that it's unclear notation. It may be less familiar to classical musicians who are used to only playing exactly what's on the page, but to jazz, pop, and theatre people, this notation is everywhere.

And if it is only known by jazz, pop and theatre people then that's unclear. That's why I'm saying, it's a Hal Leonard publication meant for everybody, I would expect an explanation that is better than some obscure secret symbol that people "in the know" use but others don't know.

I just finished my doctorate in composition and have seen many scores with extended techniques up the wazoo, and don't recall ever seeing this before. If this were a contemporary classical work, of the type I studied in university, you would expect to have to explain the technique. It is even quite common to include such commonplace techniques as sul tasto or sul ponticello in the front matter techniques explanation, as they are very very common extended techniques, but extended techniques nevertheless. So, if it is a general rule to explain what sul tasto and sul ponticello are in the front matter, I would expect an explanation of this symbol.

 

[moon]

And if it is only known by jazz, pop and theatre people then that's unclear. That's why I'm saying, it's a Hal Leonard publication meant for everybody, I would expect an explanation that is better than some obscure secret symbol that people "in the know" use but others don't know.

I just finished my doctorate in composition and have seen many scores with extended techniques up the wazoo, and don't recall ever seeing this before. If this were a contemporary classical work, of the type I studied in university, you would expect to have to explain the technique. It is even quite common to include such commonplace techniques as sul tasto or sul ponticello in the front matter techniques explanation, as they are very very common extended techniques, but extended techniques nevertheless. So, if it is a general rule to explain what sul tasto and sul ponticello are in the front matter, I would expect an explanation of this symbol.

I'm very sorry that your professors have failed you by not exposing you to the world of popular music. However, the fact of the matter is that this is a common notation style. I've certainly purchased music from Hal Leonard that uses this type of notehead without any sort of explanation for it. Even if I were to write a technique explanation, it would read almost exactly as it appears in the score.

 

[mducharme]

I'm very sorry that your professors have failed you by not exposing you to the world of popular music. However, the fact of the matter is that this is a common notation style. I've certainly purchased music from Hal Leonard that uses this type of notehead without any sort of explanation for it. Even if I were to write a technique explanation, it would read almost exactly as it appears in the score.

I get that it's popular in some circles, but the two main books on contemporary classical notation, which are the Kurt Stone (which is older and was referenced above) and the Elaine Gould (the more modern reference) both do not even show this technique as an example. They do show lots of other examples of contemporary notation, playing inside the piano. I assume only from the video that was posted that this is playing inside the piano - in contemporary classical it would be a general rule to always indicate play inside the piano, unless you gave a direction like "strum the strings" or asked for a harmonic that very obviously involved playing inside the piano. In comparison, I've seen explanations of the special symbols used by Penderecki in his "Threnody" from quite a few sources.

And no, popular music wasn't considered worthy of study, except by music theorists. As composers, it was mostly composers like Ligeti, Saariaho, Penderecki (the earlier stuff like Threnody), Karlheinz Stockhausen, Luciano Berio, Thomas Ades, etc. who we studied. No popular music.

 

[Cletus McBone]

Yes, normal-size diamonds in extended technique piano indicate a silent depress, but this is a generic over-size diamond, which is a common scoring stage shorthand placeholder for whatever effect the performance note describes at that point. The big diamond can mean anything, even in the same piece and part, depending on the performance note text. It has served countless effects. There's nothing relevant to the placement of the diamond on D; that's just the convenience of writing it in the middle of the stave at the neutral position.

In this case the intention is to perform quick random notes with all 10 fingers clustering in roughly the lowest octave. Having the pedal down throughout makes all the difference, and the hammer strikes are easy to mostly avoid at pp, the pianist eases into the effect at the start.

It would take longer to notate this with proper archival-level notation for a non-Hal Leonard level piece, so the quick-n-dirty approach works well enough in H-Wood settings.

The video of the guy reaching into the piano is just him improvising an alternate approach for the same effect, and being a bit theatrical. He's not using both hands, contrary to the performance note. He might be tapping the strings with a rubber mallet or some such. It's an acceptable substitute for what JW asked for, but that's definitely not in the notation.

To do this with samples, load up your preferred pp or softer piano samples, play fast random notes in roughly the lowest octave, and eq out any unwanted hammer noise.
__________

 

[Zedcars]

Hey, thanks so much for all of your replies. Very good of your all to offer your advice.

Yes, normal-size diamonds in extended technique piano indicate a silent depress, but this is a generic over-size diamond, which is a common scoring stage shorthand placeholder for whatever effect the performance note describes at that point. The big diamond can mean anything, even in the same piece and part, depending on the performance note text. It has served countless effects. There's nothing relevant to the placement of the diamond on D; that's just the convenience of writing it in the middle of the stave at the neutral position.

In this case the intention is to perform quick random notes with all 10 fingers clustering in roughly the lowest octave. Having the pedal down throughout makes all the difference, and the hammer strikes are easy to mostly avoid at pp, the pianist eases into the effect at the start.

It would take longer to notate this with proper archival-level notation for a non-Hal Leonard level piece, so the quick-n-dirty approach works well enough in H-Wood settings.

The video of the guy reaching into the piano is just him improvising an alternate approach for the same effect, and being a bit theatrical. He's not using both hands, contrary to the performance note. He might be tapping the strings with a rubber mallet or some such. It's an acceptable substitute for what JW asked for, but that's definitely not in the notation.

To do this with samples, load up your preferred pp or softer piano samples, play fast random notes in roughly the lowest octave, and eq out any unwanted hammer noise.
__________

I greatly appreciate your detailed answer.

 

[fretwalker]

@moon is correct. You see this notation in jazz charts for the rhythm section all the time