Hidden octaves or not?
- Thread starter Jo1R2d2!
- Start date
fantasy sound
New Member
Do you mean that I-IV progression(mm.4-5)? Then, yes it should be avoided.
Also, the leading-tone should resolve to the tonic. In some cases it can move downward, but in this case it can't.
Also, the leading-tone should resolve to the tonic. In some cases it can move downward, but in this case it can't.
Paul@Sydney
Senior Member
Measures 3 to 4 do. The repeated c's on the first beat of those bars in soprano and bass.
Are you wanting to adhere to common practice period rules? Where are you up to in your studies?
Are you wanting to adhere to common practice period rules? Where are you up to in your studies?
fantasy sound
New Member
Oh I see, my bad. Those are hidden consecutives, so you should avoid them.
It is permissible if the soprano part is moving in a stepwise motion.
What I mentioned in the previous post was this.
Cletus McBone
(Formerly: R.G.)
Yes, end of bar 2 to start of bar 3, those are hidden octaves, or as the case is more descriptively called, the downbeat of bar 3 is an accented octave.
Also, although this goes from weak-to-strong, it's still not a worse case scenario since the low F on beat 3 of bar 2 is only a displacement of the prior F an octave higher, and all on the same harmony (the second half of the bar is simply a re-voicing of the first half), so in terms of from strong-to-strong, it's not an accented octave, but oblique motion (the C in the soprano on the first half of bar 2 is carried through to the downbeat of bar 3), and that prolongation softens, a little bit, the accenting of the octave from weak-to-strong.
EDIT: Typos and a better explanation.
__________
Also, although this goes from weak-to-strong, it's still not a worse case scenario since the low F on beat 3 of bar 2 is only a displacement of the prior F an octave higher, and all on the same harmony (the second half of the bar is simply a re-voicing of the first half), so in terms of from strong-to-strong, it's not an accented octave, but oblique motion (the C in the soprano on the first half of bar 2 is carried through to the downbeat of bar 3), and that prolongation softens, a little bit, the accenting of the octave from weak-to-strong.
EDIT: Typos and a better explanation.
__________
Last edited:
Hello,
Thanks!
Using a position change to soften chord progressions is sometimes allowed but is a not always simple to explain.
Would you allow the position change to soften the octaves and fifths on the downbeats as in the next example?
It was explained in a book that when the downbeat and the position change are equal in lenghth this could be allowed.
Thanks!
Using a position change to soften chord progressions is sometimes allowed but is a not always simple to explain.
Would you allow the position change to soften the octaves and fifths on the downbeats as in the next example?
It was explained in a book that when the downbeat and the position change are equal in lenghth this could be allowed.
Attachments
Cletus McBone
(Formerly: R.G.)
So, for comparison, in your previous example (post #1, from bar 2 to bar 3) you had no actual parallel octaves, but an accented one on bar 3. And although that is a little bit mitigated by the second half of bar 2 being only a re-voicing of the first half, the accented octave is still a little strong since they are in the outer voices and they both leap.
You can find the odd accented octave or fifth in outer voices in Bach's chorales, but I don't know if there are any where both voices leap, though it is possible. IMV, that example is kind of borderline in a Baroque context. And in Baroque practice, continuo musicians sometimes used diminution to smooth out the leaps and/or to provide more activity to the base structure, in which case here the performance could produce actual parallel octaves. And the mind's ear, for some people, will perform it's own sort of diminution, which is why the octave or fifth in outer voices is overall heard as "accented".
But in the example you just posted, in a polyphonic texture of maximally independent voices, going from bar downbeat to bar down beat, the "afterbeat parallels" would be regarded as disruptive to the goal of independence, since that one slice of intervention on beat three is not enough to avoid that. With three beats of intervention, the parallel is largely considered to be non-disruptive.
In homophonic keyboard textures, of course, these types of parallels are usually not a concern since the texture is not one of maximally independent voices.
__________
You can find the odd accented octave or fifth in outer voices in Bach's chorales, but I don't know if there are any where both voices leap, though it is possible. IMV, that example is kind of borderline in a Baroque context. And in Baroque practice, continuo musicians sometimes used diminution to smooth out the leaps and/or to provide more activity to the base structure, in which case here the performance could produce actual parallel octaves. And the mind's ear, for some people, will perform it's own sort of diminution, which is why the octave or fifth in outer voices is overall heard as "accented".
But in the example you just posted, in a polyphonic texture of maximally independent voices, going from bar downbeat to bar down beat, the "afterbeat parallels" would be regarded as disruptive to the goal of independence, since that one slice of intervention on beat three is not enough to avoid that. With three beats of intervention, the parallel is largely considered to be non-disruptive.
In homophonic keyboard textures, of course, these types of parallels are usually not a concern since the texture is not one of maximally independent voices.
__________
Last edited:
Thank you so much for jumping in.
This matter is so confusing as it is different depending on musical context.
As a english is not my native language I have a hard time understanding your last reply.
The simple (academic) things i find the most difficult to explain.
This is another snippet from a book.
Octaves on the downbeat (brackets)
Position changes on the upbeat.
According to the author this could be allowed.
I have a hard time explaining this in simple words.
Thank you
This matter is so confusing as it is different depending on musical context.
As a english is not my native language I have a hard time understanding your last reply.
The simple (academic) things i find the most difficult to explain.
This is another snippet from a book.
Octaves on the downbeat (brackets)
Position changes on the upbeat.
According to the author this could be allowed.
I have a hard time explaining this in simple words.
Thank you
Attachments
Cletus McBone
(Formerly: R.G.)
That whole strand is in root position primary triads, and, metrically, the prevailing effect between the basses and tenors is not of independent voices, but that of an octave coupling throughout, so, more of a homophonic texture. The weak beats simply break up what would otherwise be monotonous parallels, and with no secondary activity to provide movement and better voicings for the treble parts.
__________
__________
