Dude, I was a beginner and my next step was becoming a dilettante. That's also a path, ask me anything related to music and I will answer with at least a 26% margin of error in 3 different languages.
No money can by that.
Disappointed in Orchestral Tools Berlin Series Main Collections
- Thread starter General_Disarray
- Start date
- Status
No money can by that.
General_Disarray
Active Member
Question for those of you who own all the Berlin strings. What library in it (meaning Berlin Strings, Special Bows, First Chairs and Symphonic Strings) gets closer to Appassionata style strings in your opinion?
I know it doesn't bring any because doing a search in the Sine player for even appas doesn't bring any results.
And just to warn other people contemplating this deal, there's no flautando strings either. That doesn't make it a bad deal, since it brings a lot of other stuff in abundance.
I know it doesn't bring any because doing a search in the Sine player for even appas doesn't bring any results.
And just to warn other people contemplating this deal, there's no flautando strings either. That doesn't make it a bad deal, since it brings a lot of other stuff in abundance.
VVEremita
Senior Member
Flautando: I think I have never seen Flautando in an OT library, and I have quite a few now. Special Bows has deeply sampled Sul Tasto. It's not exactly the same, but it can get you in that direction. As far as I understand, there is an overlap between those articulations. Spitfire sometimes samples both.
I'm quoting a user from the VSL forum who is quoting Adler:
"sul tasto: on the fingerboard
flautando: near, but not on the fingerboard
The difference is really minimal, and many composers make no distinction between the two terms.
Adler, second edition, p 35"
Edit: Another way too look at: Sul Tasto is an instruction on where to put the bow, Flautando is the instruction to go for a certain sound (flute-like). Both will make the sound more soft, with less overtones, by bowing closer to the fingerboard.
Please correct me if I'm wrong folks, I never conducted an orchestra
Last edited:
syrinx
Senior Member
I showed this to my partner and they said "yeah that's how you think". Feeling the burn!
syrinx
Senior Member
I would try BSS and the different vibrato settings. Some patches have "strong vibrato" (at least in BS, but I don't have BSS).
Just a heads up, I wrote flautando once for a chamber ensemble piece(having learnt it from Adler's definition once upon a time) and the violinist explained that they interpreted it as fast light bowing (and probably somewhat near the fingerboard). The result was of course still a "flute-like" tone. A few others have agreed on that when I asked. So the execution of flautando isn't as straight forward as one might think.
andrewfreib
Active Member
Yes, flautando is a bow-weight or bow-pressure related technique, whereas sul tasto refers to bow-position on the string. There is often, but not always, some overlap between the two techniques in practice.
Jackal_King
Senior Member
I bought BSS yesterday and just spent the morning playing around with it and I'm am simply stoked on how well it sounds out the box. No issues with Sine player so far (knock on wood) despite the very long download time. I would recommend for anyone use a 8GB RAM laptop to start with downloading one or two mics at a time. I don't use close mics much except for solo instruments, But I did start off using the tree and outriggers.
Based on two compositions that I'm currently working on for my first EP/album, I can tell you that BSS goes very well with Appassionata. Whem I did them both in isolation for comparison, they both sound pretty damn similar but without the extra reverberation of Air Lyndhurst for BSS. I even did a little bit of layering with Abion One and was really impressed with how they blended together. This weekend I'll have a lot of time to mess around with it to see how it works with CSS. But I'm already convinced on how good OT makes their libraries.
Now, I'll need to fight the temptation of getting the con sordino or solo strings from OT.
InsomniaEmperor
Senior Member
They weren’t kidding when they said con Sordino + Berlin Symphonic Strings = lushness. It’s also pretty detailed for a Sordino library so you should get it.
VVEremita
Senior Member
I got the Berlin Mains, stretching my budget, and then I listened to demos and walkthroughs of the Sordinos... bought almost in a heartbeat and no regrets. Extremly lovely if you want that soft tone.
The First Chairs, on the other hand, don't impress me as much. I only have the Berklee stripped down version, but they are not spectacular. I rather use the Peteris Vasks First Chairs. They are incredible.
Jackal_King
Senior Member
We'll see if I bite on the con sordino as long as it doesn't overlap with CSS.
General_Disarray
Active Member
Well, it turns out I made a huge mistake buying these. Which is why I changed the title of this thread, because I want people to be warned. Being Friday night at 2:22 I'm not in the mood to retype all I just did in a message to Orchestral Tools, but needless to say I'm really pissed off.
When you're not swimming in cash and you spend $2,000 in a product that is supposed to be top notch, but has no quality control and basically you can't really use, at least not as much as you would use Cinesamples, Eastwest Hollywood Orchestra, CSS, etc, you can't just let it go. So I will paste here the message I just sent to Orchestral Tools and hopefully it will warn others who still haven't fallen for it, because most likely they won't give me a refund and I will have to file a claim with my credit card.
And if you want to call me an idiot for spending so much money with them after I knew about two glitches in the Wolfenstein Low Strings in Metropolis Ark 1 that went without a fix since I reported it about 8 months ago, feel free to do so. I just didn't think there was a chance that this company could be so bad at quality control when they have samples that sound so well. I thought those were too isolated glitches, and this 50% off sale was a great chance to get these libraries, which I had always wanted.
But they are useless, and you will see in my message to them why. And you can also hear the mixdowns from Cubase (These are plain mixdowns with no reverb added, only a standard limiter to the stereo out track to make sure it doesn't clip). Because to me one thing is clear. You can't rely on libraries where you know there's a glitch at certain notes or ranges and in certain articulations, because you need to be able to compose using these libraries in any way you see fit, not working around glitches they have. If I want to have a sequence of fast playing short notes in spiccato, staccato or whatever other short articulation, I can't be thinking "Oh, wait, I want this repetition in F3, but even though I paid a buttload of money for these libraries, they have that glitch. So I will put the notes in F4 and then do something else as a workaround, like render them to an audio track and then change the pitch of the audio part.
And if I want to compose something that will have a bass playing E1 in sustain or sustain legato, I simply cannot use these because of what you're going to hear. You might say "But that noise is in the background". Sure. But if ALL you're playing at that point in your composition is an E1, it's very audible. So instead of using the most expensive library I ever bought, I have to use any of the other libraries I have, none of which have any glitches that I can tell after using them for a year or several months.
So here's my message to them:
Earlier this year I bought the Met. Ark 1 Wolfenstein low strings. I reported a couple of bugs with them, but so far they haven't been addressed. That's not the main problem, just background. The huge problem is that I just spent 1,825.11 € in almost all the Berlin series libraries you have on sale for 50%, because despite these glitches in the M. Ark 1 strings, everything I had so far from your company has an excellent sound quality. Since you don't do 50% sales often, I went for it, first the main bundle, then the other string libraries and the extra woodwinds ones. Cost me $2,000, which is an insane amount of money for me, but I thought these libraries were top notch.
Sadly, your lack of quality control and dedication to detail that was only evident in just two rather small glitches in the Wolf. strings, are all over the place in the Berlin Strings, which as you say, is your flagship library.
First, I load in Cubase Pro 13 a MIDI mockup that has a lot of very short notes in rapid succession, and I try all the short articulations until I find the one that sounds the best. And that's when I start hearing all these clicking noises, but only on certain notes, not in all the octaves that the violin can play. So at the same velocity, these notes play fine in staccato, or even spiccato, but they make a horrible clicking noise for notes around F3 or so. Other short articulations make these noises too, but only in the range mentioned. Other notes that are just as short and have the same exact velocity but in other octaves don’t have this clicking noise.
Then another track that has violas, it does the same thing, only in short articulations and around G2 and notes around it.
That's one of the files I attached.
As if this wasn't bad enough, I start another project, trying to do a mockup that starts with a bass playing a sustain in E1. So I load the bass in Berlin Strings and play E1. I hear the bass playing E1 but a fraction of a second later, I hear this weird noise in the background, mostly on the right channel. It's a mid-high pitched noise that sounds like someone moved something in the background they were not supposed to move, and it made it into the recording. Normally that wouldn't have been a problem, any company that does proper QC and plays the notes one by one in each articulation, would've heard this and taken care of it the next recording session, or just included another take of the same note.
This shows me that you people just don't care about these details, but even at 50% off, your libraries are too expensive, especially when they're not 100% perfect, and have more glitches than libraries that cost way less.
I have all the Eastwest libraries, all the Cinesamples libraries, CSS, and many others, and not a single one of them has any glitches that I could tell just by using them normally.
If you would've fixed the Wolfenstein strings glitches fairly soon, I would say, no problem, I'll keep these because they sound great and they will fix these problems. But I've been asking Gerardo when are those going to be fixed, and he just told me basically whenever we want to. Not with those words, but it's been about 7 or 8 months, and still no fix to those.
But spending so much money on what is supposed to be a top notch library, and it turns out that in less than a day of using them, not even trying to find any glitches, I find all these, it tells me that I made a huge mistake. Because this is going to be like the Wolfenstein strings. It's never going to get fixed.
So I don't want to hear any excuses, like "Don't worry, we're going to fix them soon" because I'm not going to have it. I'm an old guy, I don't want to spend time troubleshooting things or waiting for fixes. If I spend so much money on sample libraries, I want them to work, period. If in just one day I found all these glitches, I bet if I start to use them, I'm going to find a lot more.
So I don't want to waste my time arguing about this back and forth, I want my money back, and once I see it, I'll delete these, and you can take the licenses from my account.
If you don't give me my money back, I'll simply file a complaint with my credit card, that's it. For starters, this is borderline criminal, because you sell something very expensive promising high quality and you don't state clearly that many notes and articulations will have glitches.
So I expect to receive a response from you agreeing to give me a full refund for everything I purchased on November 21st, 2023 by end of day on Monday, or I will start the process of filing a claim with my credit card.
View attachment Orchestral Tools Berlin Strings clicking noises.mp3
View attachment Berlin Strings Bass E1 glitch.mp3
When you're not swimming in cash and you spend $2,000 in a product that is supposed to be top notch, but has no quality control and basically you can't really use, at least not as much as you would use Cinesamples, Eastwest Hollywood Orchestra, CSS, etc, you can't just let it go. So I will paste here the message I just sent to Orchestral Tools and hopefully it will warn others who still haven't fallen for it, because most likely they won't give me a refund and I will have to file a claim with my credit card.
And if you want to call me an idiot for spending so much money with them after I knew about two glitches in the Wolfenstein Low Strings in Metropolis Ark 1 that went without a fix since I reported it about 8 months ago, feel free to do so. I just didn't think there was a chance that this company could be so bad at quality control when they have samples that sound so well. I thought those were too isolated glitches, and this 50% off sale was a great chance to get these libraries, which I had always wanted.
But they are useless, and you will see in my message to them why. And you can also hear the mixdowns from Cubase (These are plain mixdowns with no reverb added, only a standard limiter to the stereo out track to make sure it doesn't clip). Because to me one thing is clear. You can't rely on libraries where you know there's a glitch at certain notes or ranges and in certain articulations, because you need to be able to compose using these libraries in any way you see fit, not working around glitches they have. If I want to have a sequence of fast playing short notes in spiccato, staccato or whatever other short articulation, I can't be thinking "Oh, wait, I want this repetition in F3, but even though I paid a buttload of money for these libraries, they have that glitch. So I will put the notes in F4 and then do something else as a workaround, like render them to an audio track and then change the pitch of the audio part.
And if I want to compose something that will have a bass playing E1 in sustain or sustain legato, I simply cannot use these because of what you're going to hear. You might say "But that noise is in the background". Sure. But if ALL you're playing at that point in your composition is an E1, it's very audible. So instead of using the most expensive library I ever bought, I have to use any of the other libraries I have, none of which have any glitches that I can tell after using them for a year or several months.
So here's my message to them:
Earlier this year I bought the Met. Ark 1 Wolfenstein low strings. I reported a couple of bugs with them, but so far they haven't been addressed. That's not the main problem, just background. The huge problem is that I just spent 1,825.11 € in almost all the Berlin series libraries you have on sale for 50%, because despite these glitches in the M. Ark 1 strings, everything I had so far from your company has an excellent sound quality. Since you don't do 50% sales often, I went for it, first the main bundle, then the other string libraries and the extra woodwinds ones. Cost me $2,000, which is an insane amount of money for me, but I thought these libraries were top notch.
Sadly, your lack of quality control and dedication to detail that was only evident in just two rather small glitches in the Wolf. strings, are all over the place in the Berlin Strings, which as you say, is your flagship library.
First, I load in Cubase Pro 13 a MIDI mockup that has a lot of very short notes in rapid succession, and I try all the short articulations until I find the one that sounds the best. And that's when I start hearing all these clicking noises, but only on certain notes, not in all the octaves that the violin can play. So at the same velocity, these notes play fine in staccato, or even spiccato, but they make a horrible clicking noise for notes around F3 or so. Other short articulations make these noises too, but only in the range mentioned. Other notes that are just as short and have the same exact velocity but in other octaves don’t have this clicking noise.
Then another track that has violas, it does the same thing, only in short articulations and around G2 and notes around it.
That's one of the files I attached.
As if this wasn't bad enough, I start another project, trying to do a mockup that starts with a bass playing a sustain in E1. So I load the bass in Berlin Strings and play E1. I hear the bass playing E1 but a fraction of a second later, I hear this weird noise in the background, mostly on the right channel. It's a mid-high pitched noise that sounds like someone moved something in the background they were not supposed to move, and it made it into the recording. Normally that wouldn't have been a problem, any company that does proper QC and plays the notes one by one in each articulation, would've heard this and taken care of it the next recording session, or just included another take of the same note.
This shows me that you people just don't care about these details, but even at 50% off, your libraries are too expensive, especially when they're not 100% perfect, and have more glitches than libraries that cost way less.
I have all the Eastwest libraries, all the Cinesamples libraries, CSS, and many others, and not a single one of them has any glitches that I could tell just by using them normally.
If you would've fixed the Wolfenstein strings glitches fairly soon, I would say, no problem, I'll keep these because they sound great and they will fix these problems. But I've been asking Gerardo when are those going to be fixed, and he just told me basically whenever we want to. Not with those words, but it's been about 7 or 8 months, and still no fix to those.
But spending so much money on what is supposed to be a top notch library, and it turns out that in less than a day of using them, not even trying to find any glitches, I find all these, it tells me that I made a huge mistake. Because this is going to be like the Wolfenstein strings. It's never going to get fixed.
So I don't want to hear any excuses, like "Don't worry, we're going to fix them soon" because I'm not going to have it. I'm an old guy, I don't want to spend time troubleshooting things or waiting for fixes. If I spend so much money on sample libraries, I want them to work, period. If in just one day I found all these glitches, I bet if I start to use them, I'm going to find a lot more.
So I don't want to waste my time arguing about this back and forth, I want my money back, and once I see it, I'll delete these, and you can take the licenses from my account.
If you don't give me my money back, I'll simply file a complaint with my credit card, that's it. For starters, this is borderline criminal, because you sell something very expensive promising high quality and you don't state clearly that many notes and articulations will have glitches.
So I expect to receive a response from you agreeing to give me a full refund for everything I purchased on November 21st, 2023 by end of day on Monday, or I will start the process of filing a claim with my credit card.
View attachment Orchestral Tools Berlin Strings clicking noises.mp3
View attachment Berlin Strings Bass E1 glitch.mp3
I do appreciate that it is irritating when you spend a lot of money and there are some dodgy notes, and it is frustrating that they don't get fixed.
However, it is rare that a library is ever perfect, and I'm surprised you haven't noticed small issues with the other things you own, as I own a lot of them too and they most certainly aren't perfect either.
I guess ultimately some things can only be fixed by re-recording them so when that is the case....well.
I think the problem might be the expectation for the reputation OT seems to have on here. It is easy to get the impression on here that they deliver the best and most polished libraries, but I don't think that is the case. They are a great developer with some amazing libraries, but their quality control can be as dodgy as any of the others (I mean SINE in its early days was a train wreck of bugs and issues).
I would be surprised if they gave you a refund for a few dodgy notes. Ibought junkie XL on intro when SINE was new and it was unusable due to the constant crashing. I thought I had a much better case for a refund as I literally couldn't use it without it crashing but they said no. It wasn't just me either as it was widely reported to be ridiculously unstable. I had to wait months and months before it was stable enough to use.
However, it is rare that a library is ever perfect, and I'm surprised you haven't noticed small issues with the other things you own, as I own a lot of them too and they most certainly aren't perfect either.
I guess ultimately some things can only be fixed by re-recording them so when that is the case....well.
I think the problem might be the expectation for the reputation OT seems to have on here. It is easy to get the impression on here that they deliver the best and most polished libraries, but I don't think that is the case. They are a great developer with some amazing libraries, but their quality control can be as dodgy as any of the others (I mean SINE in its early days was a train wreck of bugs and issues).
I would be surprised if they gave you a refund for a few dodgy notes. Ibought junkie XL on intro when SINE was new and it was unusable due to the constant crashing. I thought I had a much better case for a refund as I literally couldn't use it without it crashing but they said no. It wasn't just me either as it was widely reported to be ridiculously unstable. I had to wait months and months before it was stable enough to use.
Last edited:
hsindermann
Member
@OP That's my experience too - whenever I try to give these libraries another go, in barely 5 minutes I've found the first issues - both with the Sine player and the samples. And no, none of this will ever get fixed. I've complained lately in another thred about issues with Oboe 1 - turns out that was also broken in their Kontakt version of BWW Revive, so this issue existed for many years, and did not - and likely will not ever - get fixed. Quality control @ OT is indeed terrible...
QuiteAlright
Gastronomer
This sucks to hear about, and I'm sorry. BS is a pretty spotty library compared to others like BWW, which I found to be more reliable (at least the Kontakt version).
For what it's worth, I doubt they'll give you a refund, and I don't think there's anything criminal about it. Just poor quality control, which I agree is extremely frustrating for expensive libraries like these.
tc9000
Absolute Member
@General_Disarray watching your story arc play out is so intense. I feel like you are on a condensed version of the same journey I have made. OK, no two journeys are the same, but I just wanted to say I think I have felt similar things to you, stemming from a desire to create beautiful orchestral music. A crazy, impossible dream for someone of my age and ability... and yet here I am buying up string libraries hahah.
All I can say is hang in there and keep coming back to what you are searching for. There are highs to be found here too... but beware of the dopamine purchasing highs haha <HYPOCRITICALLY TAKES MASSIVE HIT OF BLACK FRIDAY CONSUMER DOPAMINE>.
All libraries are imperfect. Acquiring the kit is requires financial investment, but it's easy. Aquiring the knowledge takes emotional investment, its hard. You don't need libraries, you need knowledge - with that you could make beautiful music from the most basic of libraries. Maybe you already have it - I don't. Don't let libraries and sales distract you too much that's all I'm saying. The real treasure is the knowledge - the rest is just trinkets and shiny baubles hhahah.
Have a look at what (the genius) Taron has done with BBC SSO Discover.
vi-control.net
[All of the above I could (and do) fully address to myself BTW]
All I can say is hang in there and keep coming back to what you are searching for. There are highs to be found here too... but beware of the dopamine purchasing highs haha <HYPOCRITICALLY TAKES MASSIVE HIT OF BLACK FRIDAY CONSUMER DOPAMINE>.
All libraries are imperfect. Acquiring the kit is requires financial investment, but it's easy. Aquiring the knowledge takes emotional investment, its hard. You don't need libraries, you need knowledge - with that you could make beautiful music from the most basic of libraries. Maybe you already have it - I don't. Don't let libraries and sales distract you too much that's all I'm saying. The real treasure is the knowledge - the rest is just trinkets and shiny baubles hhahah.
Have a look at what (the genius) Taron has done with BBC SSO Discover.
Exploring BBCSO Discover...
Holy hell, I feel now seriously insecure, hoping that I can share with you my early explorations with BBCSO Discover, mildly afraid that I'm miles upon miles behind where you folks are in this genre. So, while I have done a few occasional orchestral compositions with other libraries, I've never...
vi-control.net
[All of the above I could (and do) fully address to myself BTW]
Last edited:
Henrik B. Jensen
Senior Member
I think those of us who have been in this for a while - in particular people who‘re using sample libraries to make a living as composers - accept that these tools aren’t perfect and use workarounds when necessary to get the job done.
Backwards L
(aka ⅃ʟ)
That's really true, every one of them have flaws.
I don't think I've had one orchestral library without at least one duff/dodgy note.
I was alot more annoyed at OT with the SINE player stuff. I think that did warrant a refund far more than the odd noise on a sample. It was literally unusable for months after release as it was so unstable.
The first example in this just sounds like a medley of poorly programmed MIDI sequences. I'm guessing you just downloaded MIDI from somewhere and then dropped it in? There doesn't sound like there's any variation in velocity, which is for the most part set way too high, and is why there'll be noises like scratches and clicks, (as that happens in real life when playing short notes at loud dynamics). Sounds like the wrong articulation is used for much of it also.
I don't even have Berlin Strings (yet) but I'm certain it can perform all of those excerpts better than what is being presented here if the MIDI is adapted to the library, and you program appropriate articulation changes (via keyswitches or expression maps etc.).
Is there a particular moment in the file that we should be paying attention to? Maybe I missed it
SampleHoarder
Active Member
EDIT: title of the thread has been changed by Mike Green. Post below was my reaction to what I felt was an overly antagonistic and plain hostile thread title
~
A bit of an over-vindictive thread title if you ask me. I am sorry for the OP he feels burned, and I even get his reasoning. But to state “avoid all OT products” based on an experience with one set of samples is baseless. Plus what about dozens and dozens of pro-level users who continue to use OT libraries for their jobs? I fear it is mostly down to the OP lacking experience and coming in with the wrong expectations.
~
A bit of an over-vindictive thread title if you ask me. I am sorry for the OP he feels burned, and I even get his reasoning. But to state “avoid all OT products” based on an experience with one set of samples is baseless. Plus what about dozens and dozens of pro-level users who continue to use OT libraries for their jobs? I fear it is mostly down to the OP lacking experience and coming in with the wrong expectations.
Last edited:
- Status
