Adachi: Important update, 8Dio threatens reviewers and competing devs

[EvilDragon]

OK I feel I should add some more info here... The time seems right.

The year was 2010, it was September. The battle between VOXOS and Requiem was raging. Discussions were had, opinions were thrown around left and right. So of course, I threw mine, too, with good intentions and seeing lots of benefits in each of the two aforementioned products.

And then out of a blue I get a PM here on VI-C from Troels, threatening to sue me for (you will excuse my memory on this - Troels subsequently deleted his PMs from the conversation so I only have my own PMs to go by here... god I wish I quoted paragraphs from him directly!) defamation or libel, of all things. For stating an opinion in my own capacity. And moreover, he also threatened to sue Sonokinetic (who were just starting out then and I did a couple of solo vocal libraries for them at the time, that are discontinued now) because he thought I worked for them (I was always operating as a freelancer not tied to any particular company).

But of course nothing ever happened - it was just bullying 101. And it was like that since Tonehammer days. It is more and more clear why Tonehammer fell apart. And apparently now the bully team consists of two because Troels found a match in Tawnia. Ain't that nice!

I sympathize with Cory, Anne and Sarah here. So there you have it - one more voice to the choir. A bit more fuel to the fire.

 

[Drundfunk]

I sympathize with Cory, Anne and Sarah here. So there you have it - one more voice to the choir. A bit more fuel to the fire.

Sorry guys, I'm trying to post fewer jokes/memes, but you're making it way too hard not to post them....

 

[Mike Greene]

I'm afraid Mike is going to lose his last remaining hairs while trying to figure out what to do with this one. His little Gulag is already bursting at the seams.

I've been waiting to see if @Troels Folmann was going to respond. I know he's been on the forum a few times in the last few days, so I assumed a response was coming, although this could be a tricky one to respond to, since everybody (including me) loves Cory, and I think everybody (including me) loves Sarah as well. It could be one of those "Better to just stay silent and ride it out" situations.

I witnessed a post from Sarah get deleted, practically right before my eyes. Hit the refresh button and, poof, it was gone.

That being said, in this case she didn’t call attention to the issue. She very quietly updated the original post. If they drop the hammer on her for this, that would just be Weak sauce, as the internets used to say.

No posts have been deleted on our end. FWIW, I (as member, not admin) am Team Cory and Sarah on this one. But maybe there are things we don't know, so I want to give Troels an opportunity to chime in.

 

[filipjonathan]

OK I feel I should add some more info here... The time seems right.


The year was 2010, it was September. The battle between VOXOS and Requiem was raging. Discussions were had, opinions were thrown around left and right. So of course, I threw mine, too, with good intentions and seeing lots of benefits in each of the two aforementioned products.

And then out of a blue I get a PM here on VI-C from Troels, threatening to sue me for (you will excuse my memory on this - Troels subsequently deleted his PMs from the conversation so I only have my own PMs to go by here... god I wish I quoted paragraphs from him directly!) defamation or libel, of all things. For stating an opinion in my own capacity. And moreover, he also threatened to sue Sonokinetic (who were just starting out then and I did a couple of solo vocal libraries for them at the time, that are discontinued now) because he thought I worked for them (I was always operating as a freelancer not tied to any particular company).

But of course nothing ever happened - it was just bullying 101. And it was like that since Tonehammer days. It is more and more clear why Tonehammer fell apart. And apparently now the bully team consists of two because Troels found a match in Tawnia. Ain't that nice!


I sympathize with Cory, Anne and Sarah here. So there you have it - one more voice to the choir. A bit more fuel to the fire.

Oookkay, so Soundpaint is now also on my no-no list. Thanks!

 

[Rudianos]

Geez. It seems so un economical (from an energy standpoint) to act like such a meanie. To put something out there, silence freedoms to express opinions ... in the world of ideas. Yikes.

We have all hit the send button from time to time and hoped to retract or delete. I can forgive anyone from getting frustrated, even threatening me. But if there are no apologies and just avoidance it would be hard to do business with someone. It does seem like a bully, or someone very emotionally not established. It is all just being human, but come on.

When we make art we put ourselves out there... and subject our vulnerabilities to the world. That is a lot in itself. When we charge though for it, we enter into a business relationship. There should be better decorum. And if there is debt or money issues we must look at our expense sheets and hedge... not violate that decorum. We can learn through feedback.

Seems like there is a pattern of conduct with the stated party. Something maybe we can all learn from, in not what to be. And I pray that all parties reach inside and learn something.

 

[EvilDragon]

I would say, instead of wasting that energy into bullying others, perhaps a more salient thing to do would be to actually accept the negative feedback and improve your products? But there's no reasoning with such people, of course.

 

[Lionel Schmitt]

Whereas a demo track is showcasing the artist and their compositional skills. You generally have full control and creative freedom. And if you’re doing this for a big developer that gets a lot of traffic, the self promotion can easily pay itself off. You can also post this track on your Soundcloud, Spotify, website, etc.

I think I've done about 8-10 demo tracks for 8dio which were very well received and displayed almost always on top, 1st or 2nd track.

I can safely say I gained zero opportunities from that, not even a nice message.

Same goes for some YouTube uploads with with up to 300.000 views for some of my tracks, with no observable follower increase after that.

Nothing to do with 8dio itself (I'm rather grateful they always put them far up the list haha, I certainly had a good shot) just saying that exposure is never a good thing to rely on.

And creative freedom depends on the developer, I've had full creative freedom here and a very strong direction + rejection because it didn't follow it elsewhere. In that case there was a library from the catalog as payment though even though the track wasn't used - that wasn't 8dio to be clear.

 

[HitEmTrue]

How do you know Cory is talking about 8Dio?

I actually don't see a difference between writing a demo or doing some walkthrough. It rather takes a lot more skill and time to write a good demo, so, I would rather be inclined to see it the other way around. Well, all of this obviously depends on how much time and effort was put into it, but the way I see it, most walkthroughs and so-called reviews on YouTube are pretty much ad-lib speaking following a rough script. Why should talking a bit about a library and showing it off be well compensated while writing music not or hardly? Maybe that is the way it is, but it sure isn't fair or reasonable.

I am really not here to say that 8dio are treated unfairly, if that is what people assume. I just want to say, this kind of behaviour is (I am talking from my experience) way more common than a lot of people might think! And I also do not want to advocate that, rather the other way around ...

She was going to write exclusive material for them, and it was going to be one their channel, not hers. At least I think she said that.

 

[ibanez1]

I've just been absorbing this for the last day or so and I find it truly sad that 8DIO was involved in some personal attacks towards Cory. Cory seems like the most genuine person and it shows through in his reviews and his quick guide videos on topics like reverb.

I've generally enjoyed many of the products i've bought from 8DIO and as of just this weekend was advocating people to get anthology. I just don't understand why they would keep people employed and foster a culture where lashing out at customers/reviewers to the point of EXTORTION and threat of litigation would seem ok.

And based on recent responses, it's not a one off issue and has been going on for years.

Also sorry @Sarah Mancuso for constantly referencing Adachi and you in discussions about Anthology. I realize now it was probably just pouring salt on the wound.

As of now, I'm going to stop being a huge proponent for the libraries I enjoy from them and stop further purchase.

8DIO. You make decent libraries. Some are excellent. Others have quite a few issues but still have beautiful parts that are worth looking past the imperfections. Why lash out at people for voicing their opinions to such an extent as threatening with legal action? People's honest reviews of your offerings are an opportunity to LEARN and IMPROVE. I know at the end of the day it's hubris and fear of losing sales that motivates this horrible behavior but how are threats EVER perceived as the right course of action?

 

[Paul Owen]

Geez, this is truly not a good look for 8Dio/Soundpaint. The more I read the more I feel like Troels has to chime in and do some explaining/apologising. At the very least for his and his companies sake.

 

[EvilDragon]

That would just be pro forma then back to the old behavior, I'm pretty sure.

Not sure what could be explained when you have such a distorted view of reality.

 

[Sarah Mancuso]

Also sorry @Sarah Mancuso for constantly referencing Adachi and you in discussions about Anthology. I realize now it was probably just pouring salt on the wound.

It's not your fault, you had no way of knowing! Thank you though.

 

[Hansu Heya]

She was going to write exclusive material for them, and it was going to be one their channel, not hers. At least I think she said that.

Writing a demo for a developer is equally exclusive work for that project. I am really wondering ... in a forum full of composers the work of an influencer and video creator is really appreciated more than that of a (good) composer? I must be in the wrong forum! I am sure this is just a bad dream and I will wake up in a second feeling relieved!

 

[gamma-ut]

Writing a demo for a developer is equally exclusive work for that project. I am really wondering ... in a forum full of composers the work of an influencer and video creator is really appreciated more than that of a (good) composer? I must be in the wrong forum! I am sure this is just a bad dream and I will wake up in a second feeling relieved!

I don't think that's the point being made – it's more about who values what between the two parties to a deal.

Notionally, the former has more value to the composer as it's, er, the dreaded word "exposure" for the core work and the composer will expect to be able retain enough rights to reuse it elsewhere (though it might have questionable value as libraries that want exclusives will naturally rule it out).

The walkthrough or video demo is more valuable to the product owner with far less value to the composer/producer if it's on the dev's own channel and exclusive. Obviously, there's a massive grey area in between where the composer/producer is running a notionally independent YouTube channel.

 

[Uptown Composer]

At this point, based on the information provided, I will refuse to purchase 8dio products or recommend 8dio products to my friends until Troels or 8dio publicly addresses this situation.

Inclined to agree. Reading about this makes me sad. What a terrible company.

 

[xguitaristx]

I think I've done about 8-10 demo tracks for 8dio which were very well received and displayed almost always on top, 1st or 2nd track.

I can safely say I gained zero opportunities from that, not even a nice message.

Same goes for some YouTube uploads with with up to 300.000 views for some of my tracks, with no observable follower increase after that.

Nothing to do with 8dio itself (I'm rather grateful they always put them far up the list haha, I certainly had a good shot) just saying that exposure is never a good thing to rely on.

And creative freedom depends on the developer, I've had full creative freedom here and a very strong direction + rejection because it didn't follow it elsewhere. In that case there was a library from the catalog as payment though even though the track wasn't used - that wasn't 8dio to be clear.

I’m not saying writing demo tracks is a form of exposure you can rely on.

But I am saying that you will generally gain better exposure as an artist by writing demo tracks than by creating official walkthroughs.

When you watch a walkthrough video, say from Native Instruments, you generally don’t stop to think who created it and the amount of work that went into it. It’s a dead end for the creator as far as artistic exposure goes (which is one reason why monetary value makes way more sense in those situations).

But with sample library demo tracks? Countless times Ive found an artist who I ended up buying their music from, and continue to follow.

Again, you can also use that track for your own demo reel, spotify, whatever. The same cannot be said about creating an official walkthrough video for a developer.

But i think we’re getting off track here, so I’ll just reiterate that no developer can reasonably expect anyone to create an official walkthrough video in exchange for an NFR.

 

[Markrs]

I am really sorry to hear of people’s experience with 8Dio.

I probably (almost certainly to be honest) have more of there libraries than any other developer and enjoyed them, imperfections and all (the attractive price helped to during sales and glitches). I also had good customer service from the company though no conversations with Tawnia or Troels.

So it feels very sad about how they have treated people. I really care about how people are treated, in fact it is the job I do for a living to care about the experience customers receive.

What surprises me when I watch his walkthrough videos he really comes across as passionate and caring in a way. It is a bit hard to describe but the videos felt unscripted and genuine even though he is marketing a product he has created. However, hearing these accounts, I feel duped and naive.

Not sure if we will get a response from 8Dio, but in this small industry, I think reputation and trust are very important and once lost it can be hard to regain it again.

 

[ALittleNightMusic]

I am really wondering ... in a forum full of composers the work of an influencer and video creator is really appreciated more than that of a (good) composer?

For the popular influencers here, those things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Johnny]

Although it has to be said: not being paid for library demos is pretty common! Even with the bigger brands. Just as common as directors or producers asking you to write music for free, when you haven’t got enough credits on your belt … it is not just 8dio, although they might be particularly bad, I just wouldn’t know due to lack of experience. I guess, publicly talking about the exploitation you witness in your own field of work is something many people rather step back from. That is why you hear those things less often, although I have seen enough to know it is pretty common, unfortunately. Just like with every profession that does not have a strong position in terms of power and politics.

Regarding developers specifically, I also remember rather unpleasant confrontations with certain founding members of other sample library developers who used to visit forums and “defend” their products. Also not an 8dio specific thing.

All valid points, however in this rather unique situation, bullying and threatening with lawsuits from a dev, I would argue is rather uncommon practice in this industry and merely bad form all around- no matter what year it occurred. That being said, it is very inspiring to see that VI has finally become a safe space where people can safely come forward and talk about past events of abuse and bullying from any developer, without feeling like their 2015 charity thread would be mysteriously deleted, or that they would be banned from VI for all eternity, and then bullied and threatened with a lawsuit from the same developer.

 

[Lionel Schmitt]

I’m not saying writing demo tracks is a form of exposure you can rely on.

But I am saying that you will generally gain better exposure as an artist by writing demo tracks than by creating official walkthroughs.

When you watch a walkthrough video, say from Native Instruments, you generally don’t stop to think who created it and the amount of work that went into it. It’s a dead end for the creator as far as artistic exposure goes (which is one reason why monetary value makes way more sense in those situations).

But with sample library demo tracks? Countless times Ive found an artist who I ended up buying their music from, and continue to follow.

Again, you can also use that track for your own demo reel, spotify, whatever. The same cannot be said about creating an official walkthrough video for a developer.

But i think we’re getting off track here, so I’ll just reiterate that no developer can reasonably expect anyone to create an official walkthrough video in exchange for an NFR.

Yea, it seems we agree on the overall point.
I feel like there should be compensation beyond receiving the library for both.
Both is work without knowing if the library will be worthwhile as pay. Which is a bad deal in both cases.