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A thought experiment about time travel as a musician

Just go to the Performance Samples thread. Feels like you're time travelling backwards each time a new video appears but the library doesn't get released 😆

On the question itself, I guess in a world where time travel exists, there's nothing to say that the musical idea wasn't always yours and that the people that you think you stole it from, stole it from you.

I mean, I think it kind of works like that anyways. We pick up a million bits of information from what we hear. Our brain cobbles something together out of them, and boom. "Original" song. I suppose the question becomes about what's happening in your brain, and in that case, we just don't know the answer for anyone who has written apparently original music.
But is it ethical to steal an idea that (to your knowledge) is not yours?
 
But is it ethical to steal an idea that (to your knowledge) is not yours?
No, I don't think it is ethical at all. But there are grey areas when you're picking up part of an idea, because there's simply no way that you'll come up with something that isn't at least somewhat based on an experience that you had from someone else's work. (OK it is possible but a vanishingly small chance of it happening). But if you know that you're just taking someone else's idea, then you're a proper little bastard.

In the time-travel example ... I personally would just tell them that I'm singing someone else's song or just relaying someone else's music (because personally, I couldn't claim something to be my own that wasn't mine). However, the example here contains time travel.

And any example containing time travel is just a mental can of worms haha.
 
If I was doing time travel, I'd be writing down the best stock picks and commodity investments. No way I'd be wasting my time stealing music. Besides, writing music is the fun part! I wouldn't get any joy from taking other people's ideas and presenting them earlier.
 
If I was doing time travel, I'd be writing down the best stock picks and commodity investments.
I knew somebody would leave this reply, surely, but that is out of question. Would have bought Bitcoin back in 2009/10.

It's more about the ethical / creative aspect in my original post, none financial!
 
(because personally, I couldn't claim something to be my own that wasn't mine)
No one would believe you it wasn't your original idea, no way to proof them otherwise, as the actual original idea doesn't exist yet as proof of inspiration

And any example containing time travel is just a mental can of worms haha.
Yes, it's pointless and fun!
 
Depending on how far back you go, most likely any modern music you try to peddle will get rejected/ignored because it's not what people would be accustomed to hearing.
Doesn't have to be so far back. Maybe 20 years or way less. Stealing some future Hans Zimmer, Göransson & Thomas Bergersen themes and ideas. People would be accustomed to this style - likely you wouldn't get famous though as you still aren't Zimmer, Göransson or Bergersen in the first place.
 
Doesn't have to be so far back. Maybe 20 years or way less. Stealing some future Hans Zimmer, Göransson & Thomas Bergersen themes and ideas. People would be accustomed to this style - likely you wouldn't get famous though as you still aren't Zimmer, Göransson or Bergersen in the first place.
Ah, didn't realize this was specifically about film music. Well we've certainly seen it happen in reverse - composers frequently borrow and repurpose ideas from the past - so why not from the future? But it won't necessarily guarantee success, since film scores are developed to serve a specific narrative and director's vision.
 
My view is that it is unethical to carbon copy someone's work without crediting the author. I should hope that we all share this view.
And that was the point of my original comment. And there's evidence that this view is not shared by (at least some of) the power players in the current film industry.

I'm not arguing against the money flow of a film going to "big time composer inc." because they are a lot like the employer of a patent inventor.

But withholding attribution and creating a willfully false value creation narrative, it actively suppresses the future value of the employee composer. Very much like our time traveler has actively suppressed the future value of the real composer. Attribution also has value. As has the opportunity to compete.

I very much agree with you, that the money flowing the way it is, is defensible, not only bcause of the contract, but also since getting a score into a big time film is a lot more than just writing some notes. From relationship building to project management to subcontracting to marketing - it's not that dissimilar to actually having a final product on shelves created from a patented idea. So all the future money staying with the patent holding company company or the "big time composer inc." is fine in principle, since they are paying salary (assuming the salary is somewhat "fair" but that's a different can of worms).

However, I submit, that forcing attribution NDAs on employee generated IP is a willful act of worker and competitor suppression. It prevents competitors or customers from identifying (often up and coming) value creators in the full chain of value creation.

In that sense, future value suppressing attribution NDAs are quite similar to non-compete clauses. And non-compete clauses were perfectly fine and contractually done all the time all over the U.S. But lately, they are coming under all kinds of legislative and regulatory pressure, because maybe they are really mostly shitty worker suppression and actually a violation of basic human decency/rights, and the immoral behavior needs to be curtailed. And they hurt society more than they benefit.

My original intention was to use the opportunity of this thread to go beyond a mere theoretical thought exercise to highlight that some of the same shitty misbehavior by our imaginary time traveler is actively happening in current days - it's just wrapped into a (currently still legal) contractual NDA envelope. But legal doesn't mean moral and it may very well be illegal under a different system than the U.S. or in the future U.S.

And I generally agree that crime A(attribution) + crime B(money) seems worse than just crime A(attribution), so on that angle take the win in the argument.

But that was never my original point. I was summing up the misdeeds of the time traveller and (some of) the current "big time composer inc." behaviour into "future value suppression".

Both, the time traveller and the "big time composer inc." are suppressing the future value of the real creators. And if these attribution NDAs cut 10 years from an employee composer's more lucrative opportunities that can equate to quite a lot of money.
 
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And that was the point of my original comment. And there's evidence that this view is not shared by (at least some of) the power players in the current film industry.

I'm not arguing against the money flow of a film going to "big time composer inc." because they are a lot like the employer of a patent inventor.

But withholding attribution and creating a willfully false value creation narrative, it actively suppresses the future value of the employee composer. Very much like our time traveler has actively suppressed the future value of the real composer. Attribution also has value. As has the opportunity to compete.

I very much agree with you, that the money flowing the way it is, is defensible, not only bcause of the contract, but also since getting a score into a big time film is a lot more than just writing some notes. From relationship building to project management to subcontracting to marketing - it's not that dissimilar to actually having a final product on shelves created from a patented idea. So all the future money staying with the patent holding company company or the "big time composer inc." is fine in principle, since they are paying salary (assuming the salary is somewhat "fair" but that's a different can of worms).

However, I submit, that forcing attribution NDAs on employee generated IP is a willful act of worker and competitor suppression. It prevents competitors or customers from identifying (often up and coming) value creators in the full chain of value creation.

In that sense, future value suppressing attribution NDAs are quite similar to non-compete clauses. And non-compete clauses were perfectly fine and contractually done all the time all over the U.S. But lately, they are coming under all kinds of legislative and regulatory pressure, because maybe they are really mostly shitty worker suppression and actually a violation of basic human decency/rights, and the immoral behavior needs to be curtailed. And they hurt society more than they benefit.

My original intention was to use the opportunity of this thread to go beyond a mere theoretical thought exercise to highlight that some of the same shitty misbehavior by our imaginary time traveler is actively happening in current days - it's just wrapped into a (currently still legal) contractual NDA envelope. But legal doesn't mean moral and it may very well be illegal under a different system than the U.S. or in the future U.S.

And I generally agree that crime A(attribution) + crime B(money) seems worse than just crime A(attribution), so on that angle take the win in the argument.

But that was never my original point. I was summing up the misdeeds of the time traveller and (some of) the current "big time composer inc." behaviour into "future value suppression".

Both, the time traveller and the "big time composer inc." are suppressing the future value of the real creators. And if these attribution NDAs cut 10 years from an employee composers more lucrative opportunities that can equate to quite a lot of money.
And I would agree with this stance. It would appear that both of us have been talking past each other haha. My point was that both are unethical but they are different. Building on what you said, to some extent if a Hans Zimmer has taken the time to establish credibility then it's not wrong for him to pay someone to write music for him, since this music has the "Grade Z Seal of Approval on it." However, if this practice becomes the norm (which it has) then it can be difficult for up-and-coming composer to make a name for themselves and discourages market diversity. So yes, this is wrong. But it's not illegal. That was my point, and it sounds like maybe this is your view as well.
 
It would appear that both of us have been talking past each other haha.
Or maybe that I didn't articulate my more wide angle view about "future value suppression" well enough. "Big time composer inc." has real value, just like any company. In this case the company has the name of the owner on it. Just like Dell has the name of the founder on it.

But he didn't invent the more than 50,000 patents his company holds.

The patents are assigned to Dell, but the inventors are still listed. For example:


I think the same idea should hold for employee composers.
 
It wouldn't work.

Success in music is usually very dependant on a cultural bubble/moment. If the Beatles had started in 2024 (or 1900) playing the same music they would be ignored.

There's universal music that is timeless and trascends cultural trends but these are rare exceptions.
 
Or maybe that I didn't articulate my more wide angle view about "future value suppression" well enough. "Big time composer inc." has real value, just like any company. In this case the company has the name of the owner on it. Just like Dell has the name of the founder on it.

But he didn't invent the more than 50,000 patents his company holds.

The patents are assigned to Dell, but the inventors are still listed. For example:


I think the same idea should hold for employee composers.
I concur.
 
... wouldn't help you, because you are a nobody compared to these guys and you would be ignored.

It's not enough to be a good composer to be successful.
True, there was still no need to cut of the rest of my post in your quote though where I basically say exactly that.

The ethical aspect remains - should be fine to steal them then I guess!
 
... wouldn't help you, because you are a nobody compared to these guys and you would be ignored.

It's not enough to be a good composer to be successful.
Interesting. I suppose that John Williams was born famous?.. Hans Zimmer had a very unassuming start to his amazing career. Yes, circumstances have something to do with it, but bad composers don't become successful. The question is one of ethicality. I think it's unethical; I don't think it's unfeasible.
 
I think it's unethical; I don't think it's unfeasible.
Yes, it's unethical ... theft is theft, no matter which kind. If it leads to success though, requires much more, than just a good composition, e.g. luck and the right time, knowing the right persons, etc..

But in case of a time travel a further ethical question comes into play ... changing history ... which was a topic in several films. In this special composition example, not only the original composer would be affected but very likely much more people.
 
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