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Will libraries-backed notation software replace DAW?

Hi Michael,

Michael Antrum said:
I think you are a little confused about what Staffpad is actually for. It is not trying to replace or be a traditional DAW or engraving application.

It is a composition tool.
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I think that if you read more of this thread you'll discover that my whole point is that StaffPad is a compositional tool and not a mini-DAW. In other words, I agree with you entirely. I use StaffPad myself, and think that it is great for what it was designed for and what it is actually marketed for.
 
I think the comparison between any DAW and Staffpad can't be made as they are too different in what they are designed for.
I think what the OP means is more a comparison between the major DAW's and software like Finale, Sibelius, Dorico and so on.
As a Cubase and Dorico user (before Dorico I used Finale for >15 years), I can only say that Dorico wipes the floar with Finale in terms of playback. Dorico then is less capable of playback than the major DAW's, although it seems that the Dorico team and Steinberg are working on Cubase and Dorico being integrated in the future. The new update for Dorico again provides better control of playback, but is still not at the same level as the major DAW's. You can tweak a lot in Dorico, but every major DAW will beat Dorico in everything but notation.
 
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Oh @Woodie1972 - I agree a bunch! I cannot WAIT to see what happens with closer integration between Cubase/Nuendo and Dorico. And if Dorico ever chose to go the ipad-pro route with an app along the lines of staffpad, I'd LOVE it. As it is, I've begun experimenting with a workflow using staffpad info dorico/nuendo. Even for some media work... I have a feeling getting the original idea out on staffpad for a cue might actually be an extremely interesting way of working and really concentrating on the idea rather than all the other noise that revolves around media/ad projects. And if there's instrumental recording at the end, I'm in a great place.

I don't see something like staffpad replacing DAWS, but rather offering new workflows / new possibilites. Perhaps one day we will see some sort of hybrid that really can be the one to rule them all. Unfortunately, as much as we all like to think the market is huge, its not as big as you might think for people that write using staff. DAW manufacturers rely on the bedroom musicians to prop up their professional products, yet have pro products to boost the feeling of the hobbyists using the same things (ish) as the pro's. The DAW market is SO different to something like staffpad... its not going to do everything that beat makers etc use. Its not yet close to DAWS for what you can do with mockups. And given most media music that uses instruments where a staff is important ALSO use some electronic elements, I doubt a staffpad only workflow will ever be the thing that replaces DAWS. Its all a lot messier and more interesting than that.

That's my little ramble anyway.
 
@berlin87

Yes! I'm so tired of tinkering with libraries, and keyswitches, and CCs, and timings, and envelopes, and articulations, and tracks, and items, and more tracks... I spend way more time producing, than composing. It completelly kills my will to create anything. I just end up playing with the piano.

The current technology is still cumbersome and technical details get in the way too much.

I had some old hardware synth, which didn't have realistic sounds, but it was simple, and simple to compose and orchestrate with. It also had a full keyboard string patch, velocity sensitive. The library I've got now and it's full string ensemble is not nicely blended, and not velocity sensitive, you have to use the ubiquitous dynamics CC, so I can't enjoy playing or composing with it.

We need simplicity. And the technology is yet to offer it. What really changed in the past say 20 years? But really changed? We've got better sample recordings, and that's it.

I really like the idea where I can just compose and put in a bunch of notes, and it comes out as a good performace. For some time now I'm really tempted to get a notation software and this noteperformer thing. Seems to me I would be more happy.
 
Ivan M. said:
@berlin87


We need simplicity. And the technology is yet to offer it. What really changed in the past say 20 years? But really changed? We've got better sample recordings, and that's it.

I really like the idea where I can just compose and put in a bunch of notes, and it comes out as a good performace. For some time now I'm really tempted to get a notation software and this noteperformer thing. Seems to me I would be more happy.
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Whats changed in the past 20 years? Media (and most mid/lower level film) Composers have become WAY more technical. Have become more of a sound engineer. If anyone here has done fast turn around ad work, or changed 10 cues half way through a doco mix... where's the sound engineer in this workflow? Gone. We're the sound engineer. This doesn't always make for better finished compositions. It does make for faster workflows which suit much of the clients just fine - and many many don't notice the difference. (Depends massively who you are working with.)

Many sample libs are a reaction to all this. How to get great sounding compositions in really really quick short time. Not having sound engineers (or mastering engineers - remember them?) helping out.

They're not always quick though - its EASY to get sucked down the rabbit hole - especially if trying to make something sound truly orchestral....

More rambling.
 
colony nofi said:
Whats changed in the past 20 years? Media (and most mid/lower level film) Composers have become WAY more technical. Have become more of a sound engineer. If anyone here has done fast turn around ad work, or changed 10 cues half way through a doco mix... where's the sound engineer in this workflow? Gone. We're the sound engineer. This doesn't always make for better finished compositions. It does make for faster workflows which suit much of the clients just fine - and many many don't notice the difference. (Depends massively who you are working with.)

Many sample libs are a reaction to all this. How to get great sounding compositions in really really quick short time. Not having sound engineers (or mastering engineers - remember them?) helping out.

They're not always quick though - its EASY to get sucked down the rabbit hole - especially if trying to make something sound truly orchestral....

More rambling.
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I think you've hit upon something here. DAWs are definitely more production focussed. The way they are set up allows for microscopic changes to the "sound" of a piece. But they don't always produce substantive music. The client wants a certain sound, we give it to them, we get paid. Very few clients will care if you are using 5th species counterpoint (ok, none of them will) or observing the rules of wind arrangement.... And because so much work is done inside the DAW and played/performed by VIs, composers needn't care whether an alto flute player will run out of breath with 6 tied whole notes....

Notation-based apps like Sibelius/Finale/Dorico are fabulous for engraver quality, print scores. But they never were too intuitive or fast (for me) when it came to the act of composing. There was a lot of the interface that got in the way.

Staffpad fills the need for quick, transparent writing, very good playback (I don't think the libraries are that scaled down compared to their bigger brothers and if anyone happened to listen to my interview with David, he explains why that is). It also provides a great stepping stone to either mastering the music in a DAW, or sending to the bigger notation programs to prepare for concert performance.

Is it ready for professional composers who are on tight timelines? I don't think so quite yet. At present, it appeals to concert composers who ultimately intend to have their work played by real musicians, but which provides an exceptional approximation of their intents without fucking around for days in a DAW to achieve the same result (depending on the complexity of the music).

I'm writing a medium length concert work at present and Staffpad allows me to realize stuff I heard in my head but could never quite achieve using sample libraries and DAWs, at least not without a considerable longer amount of time dedicated to getting the "performance" part down. And for me, that time save is invaluable.
 
There was a survey not so long back from Steinberg asking questions purely about the integration between Dorico & Cubase. I hope this means they are going to more tightly integrate them - I mean it's got to be on the cards.

There is also a package called Overture, which I understand is remarkably written by a single person, that tries to straddle the DAW/Notation program divide, but I've never used it.

I have also heard whispers that there is a big update fro Notion for IOS on the way - which will be interesting if true.

It will be interesting to see what crops up in the future, but I take great hope that notation based composition seems to be getting some serious developer attention, after what feels like years of finale/sibelius stagnation......
 
I took part in the survey by Steinberg, but I'm afraid that with 100 people taking part in it you will get 100 different answers and preferations, not to speak of the probably thousands of people who took the time to do the survey and all sent their hints and tips to Steinberg. Of course the survey was designed in a specific way so the people at Steinberg wouldn't get overwhelmed by all the answers, but still it is a hell of a job to filter everything and transfer it to a working (beta)version of the two programs, be it a hybrid of the two, or both programs 'talking' to each other.
I think the technology is there nowadays, with all the powerful computers, servers and libraries out there, to make this come true.

Anyway, I use Staffpad for quick sketching when I only have my laptop with me; all my composing is in either Dorico (concert works), or Cubase (media).
In Cubase I tend to write in the score editor, which is pretty decent for a DAW, where the piano roll is used for more in depth editing. As classical trained composer I heavily rely on a score instead of a piano roll, that's why I do it that way.

I hear good things about Noteperformer, but as you can only use the included libraries, which do a nice job, but won't give the same results as the major libraries, once you tweaked everything.
 
Both DAW production, and notation playback existed since the dawn of mankind. Like the late 1980ies. After the sampling libraries boom, DAW took the crown of being able of "highly realistic" music output, specially in the orchestral realm. Notation programs were indeed on the defensive, for various reasons.

Decades later, when Noteperfomer started to score some points with the young, many started questioning their fate, realizing that DAW domination was not gods intention, but rather a number of circumstances brought together, which resulted in notation playback software trailing behind for all these years.

All Staffpad does - is winning back some more ground, following the first holes Noteperfomer did in the status quo. Its only natural to see people feel uneasy with their firm believes being questioned. But time heals everything. Don`t afraid, and embrace the world in which notation software can work well, sound cool, and set free from lines of code written in 1993.
 
Vlzmusic said:
Both DAW production, and notation playback existed since the dawn of mankind. Like the late 1980ies. After the sampling libraries boom, DAW took the crown of being able of "highly realistic" music output, specially in the orchestral realm. Notation programs were indeed on the defensive, for various reasons.

Decades later, when Noteperfomer started to score some points with the young, many started questioning their fate, realizing that DAW domination was not gods intention, but rather a number of circumstances brought together, which resulted in notation playback software trailing behind for all these years.

All Staffpad does - is winning back some more ground, following the first holes Noteperfomer did in the status quo. Its only natural to see people feel uneasy with their firm believes being questioned. But time heals everything. Don`t afraid, and embrace the world in which notation software can work well, sound cool, and set free from lines of code written in 1993.
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That's some sermon lol
 
dcoscina said:
I'm writing a medium length concert work at present and Staffpad allows me to realize stuff I heard in my head but could never quite achieve using sample libraries and DAWs, at least not without a considerable longer amount of time dedicated to getting the "performance" part down. And for me, that time save is invaluable.
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For sure!
I'm writing a piece for real-time augmented string quintet at the moment, and i think even there a Staffpad workflow might have suited me better than the current nuendo/dorico arrangement.

The players I work with all have ipad pro's to read from during rehearsals and performances. (Indeed, our main local chamber orchestra also has adopted this workflow which has meant others are following!). I'm particularly excited about the potential of being able to make really quick changes during rehearsals and having them propagate out to the players on their ipads as we go - as well as getting the written notes back that players make on their scores. It all helps the composer.
(When on paper, I make a note of taking photos of the players scores at the end of rehearsal periods to learn what markings (and why) they have added to my scores - which are often prepared by someone else for time sake!).

This kind of thing is going to be far more possible within many more workflows very soon. Devs at Dorico (who I respect greatly!) are all over the possibilities - especially figuring out a way to interact with a "reader app" for players. They are focussed on the desktop app for now (its incredible the quality of scores they are producing) but they're not blind to where things are going.

I end up crossing quite a few workflow "worlds" - and staffpad looks like being quite the excellent addition to one's toolset. Something that really does alter workflow and offer the possibility of opening up new creative workflows and really assisting composition in interesting ways.
 
colony nofi said:
For sure!
I'm writing a piece for real-time augmented string quintet at the moment, and i think even there a Staffpad workflow might have suited me better than the current nuendo/dorico arrangement.

The players I work with all have ipad pro's to read from during rehearsals and performances. (Indeed, our main local chamber orchestra also has adopted this workflow which has meant others are following!). I'm particularly excited about the potential of being able to make really quick changes during rehearsals and having them propagate out to the players on their ipads as we go - as well as getting the written notes back that players make on their scores. It all helps the composer.
(When on paper, I make a note of taking photos of the players scores at the end of rehearsal periods to learn what markings (and why) they have added to my scores - which are often prepared by someone else for time sake!).
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That seems right up the Staffpad reader alley.

colony nofi said:
This kind of thing is going to be far more possible within many more workflows very soon. Devs at Dorico (who I respect greatly!) are all over the possibilities - especially figuring out a way to interact with a "reader app" for players. They are focussed on the desktop app for now (its incredible the quality of scores they are producing) but they're not blind to where things are going.

I end up crossing quite a few workflow "worlds" - and staffpad looks like being quite the excellent addition to one's toolset. Something that really does alter workflow and offer the possibility of opening up new creative workflows and really assisting composition in interesting ways.
Click to expand...
Both of you are commenting on the 'live' playing aspect that DAWs sometimes miss depending on complexity. However, I also think there's the 'mock-up' time-saving possibilities as well. As others have mentioned, currently with limited library choices, but in Staffpad, you could skip the programming aspects and go right to your mixing and mastering process.

Back to the OP, I think I'd be game if the DAW makers had something like staffpad where I could 'write' on the score in addition to the piano roll and hear with the current samples loaded. IN the mean time, I'd love more developers to have a deal where when you purchase the desktop library you can get the Staffpad addon for a cheaper deal as part of a package. So say you buy Heaviocty NOVO strings, you could get the NOVO staffpad version with it.
 
One day you'll be able to place a suction pod on your temple and it will wirelessly send your notation directives to your iPhone, from which you'll be able to print out your perfectly engraved score and parts, and listen to the score playback from a very high grade technology that renders a flawless orchestral performance. But with the way 2020 is going so far, I’m guessing it won't be this year.
 
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