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Will libraries-backed notation software replace DAW?

gohrev

gohrev

Newbie Composer
I use Sibelius + NotePerformer, and I wonder if we’ll see a move from DAW to notation software; to create final mock-ups that sound as good as one you’d spend hours tinkering on in your DAW?

Curious to read your thoughts on this :)
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I think not for media composing. The time constraints and how entrenched those software platforms are in the industry wouldn't suggest they are going away anytime soon.

For smaller projects and concert composers, something like Staffpad is a serious contender. Even orchestras/conductors want good mock ups and Staffpad does deliver in that capacity (at least much better than the existing notation programs do).
 
As a user of both Logic and SoftPad, I think that StaffPad is a great notation tool but doesn't come close. The third party StaffPad add-ons are hugely stripped down from the original virtual instruments. There's a StaffPad recreation of a Stravinsky piece on YouTube that is embarrassing. For some purposes one might get away with the add-on pianos, but I don't think beyond that.

That doesn't mean that the technology isn't coming, but I think that it's a good ways off at the moment.
 
Rory said:
As a user of both Logic and SoftPad, I think that StaffPad is a great notation tool but doesn't come close. The third party StaffPad add-ons are hugely stripped down from the original virtual instruments. There's a StaffPad recreation of a Stravinsky piece on YouTube that is embarrassing. For some purposes one might get away with the add-on pianos, but I don't think beyond that.

That doesn't mean that the technology isn't coming, but I think that it's a good ways off at the moment.
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Uhmmm...I wouldn't use some random somebody's StaffPad mockup off of youtube lol. I could show you several of DAW based Stravinsky mockups that are horrid.
 
Eric G said:
Uhmmm...I wouldn't use some random somebody's StaffPad mockup off of youtube lol. I could show you several of DAW based Stravinsky mockups that are horrid.
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That reference was simply illustrative of a substantive issue that you ignored. Do you think that it's possible to use StaffPad to make a credible mock-up of The Rite of Spring and that it would be easier than doing it in a DAW? If so, show us instead of dumping on someone whose channel you haven't even looked at.

There are people who seem to be pushing the idea that StaffPad is a mini-DAW. It isn't being marketed that way because it isn't. The idea doesn't square with the sizes of the libraries or the control that one has, but if people want to believe that, fine.

I think that StaffPad is a great tool for what it is, and I have no need to fantasise about it being something that it isn't.
 
To answer the question I would say it depends.

If you are a skilled Keyboardist or MIDI programmer, I don't see how StaffPad is an advantage. The DAW/MIDI workflow was designed with Keyboardist in mind and is optimized for them.

If however, you are not a keyboardist and know notation then StaffPad is designed for your workflow. IMHO MIDI is a bane in modern composing and there is NOTHING musical about MIDI. Its a technicians/programmers solution to a problem. The fact that I show MIDI output to any of the classical composers (or even 20th century modern composers such John Williams) and they wouldn't have a clue speaks volumes. And IMHO, StaffPad can create a more musical output that what I can create with MIDI.

But I would never take raw audio output from StaffPad due to the necessity of MIXING and MASTERING that have far more tools to make audio richer etc. In addition to the need to have recorded instruments or a VST instrument to complement the composition. So Cubase/ProTools will always be necessary and in my workflow.

FOR ME I create richer compositions because I leverage my knowledge of notation and the ability to read the scores of the masters and apply it to my work.

Doesn't have to be a zero sum game folks. DAWS/MIDI will be around for a while. But for ME StaffPad has already taken DAWS/MIDI out of 75% of my WORKFLOW.
 
I (like to) think that, in the context of orchestral compositions, DAWs will be completely replaced by notation software + sample libraries.

If I'm not mistaken, the reason why NotePerformer sounds pretty convincing is that its artificial intelligence "looks a couple of bars ahead", thus anticipating which dynamics are appropriate (or how to interpret those marked by the composer) for that specific moment.

This is only going to improve, and in the very end, only the best library makers will survive.

Hey, a boy can dream.. :)
 
Rory said:
That reference was simply illustrative of a substantive issue that you ignored. Do you think that it's possible to use StaffPad to make a credible mock-up of The Rite of Spring and that it would be easier than doing it in a DAW? If so, show us instead of dumping on someone whose channel you haven't even looked at.

There are people who seem to be pushing the idea that StaffPad is a mini-DAW. It isn't being marketed that way because it isn't. The idea doesn't square with the sizes of the libraries or the control that one has, but if people want to believe that, fine.

I think that StaffPad is a great tool for what it is, and I have no need to fantasise about it being something that it isn't.
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Give a simple HOT TAKE answer. Expect a HOT TAKE back.

Give a more thoughtful response next time. You weren't using "illustrative or substantive" in your first response it was more "stripped down", "embarrassing" . And its pretty obvious you haven't seen many StaffPad examples or seen the response by composers on this forum.
 
Eric G said:
And its pretty obvious you haven't seen many StaffPad examples or seen the response by composers on this forum.
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There is nothing particularly controversial in what I said. Meanwhile, since StaffPad was released for the Mac I've listened to every single StaffPad sound file posted to this forum and watched every single StaffPad sound file video posted to YouTube. I've done that precisely to assess just what StaffPad's limits are. As far as I can tell, we're in basic agreement on the substance, so I don't see what the point is of your belligerence.
 
The Staffpad playback engine is really great! It's a big step forward! But the result is what it is. It's not for professional use. Not because of the sound. If you have a client and send a Staffpad mockup and they will say: yeah, great, but can we have this a bit more closer and intimate? Or they want it more "modern". Or more like the temp music soundwise. In a DAW you just do it. In Staffpad you would need different Staffpad.
 
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This is a mockup for stravinsky write in Staffpad:

Leonardo outerio have written other compositions in staffpad.
 
Juanki said:
This is a mockup for stravinsky write in Staffpad:

Leonardo outerio have written other compositions in staffpad.
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Yes, that's the StaffPad version that I'm talking about. It's a pure StaffPad rendition and says a lot about the app's limitations, which I don't think are going to get "fixed" by stripped-down third party libraries and limited ability to manipulate them.

I do want to point out that bashing YouTube and Mr. Outerio was rather out of line, not just because the person doing the bashing and the person tagging along know literally nothing about him, but because he didn't manipulate the file. In fact, it was helpful of Mr. Outerio to upload this.

That said, I've heard some piano renditions that might be adequate as mock-ups, but that's solo piano. Does going with a StaffPad version of solo piano even save time?
 
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Can't make as good of a mockup in notation software. It's inherently limited by the way they handle "performances". Also notation software is far less flexible as to what plugins, samples, audio files, etc. you want to implement. For these reasons they could never surpass DAWs for 90% of media composition. For concert composers, why not? If you don't need a really good mockup it's much better to just write it in that way. But I don't know any concert composers who use a DAW anyways.
 
I will gladly limit my skills to the level of concert composers and what StaffPad can produce out of the box (I still recommending mixing and mastering in protools because of the plugins with my output from StaffPad). Here is one rendered on an IPad by “Winning” by Philip Rothman

 
Rory said:
Yes, that's the StaffPad version that I'm talking about. It's a pure StaffPad rendition and says a lot about the app's limitations, which I don't think are going to get "fixed" by stripped-down third party libraries and limited ability to manipulate them.
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I think you are a little confused about what Staffpad is actually for. It is not trying to replace or be a traditional DAW or engraving application.

It is a composition tool.

I like, like many, like to write on paper. (There's no way I can carry around all the different parts of the orchestra in my head.)

Then you would normally have the step of inputting the paper score into a DAW and then creating the mockup. Or you may then be then entering it into an engraving program for a beautifully prepared score. Staffpad reduces and simplifies these processes.

When I have got the music written into Staffpad, with very little effort (and sometimes no effort at all) I also have an often very good mockup, plus an XML file I can get into a DAW or Notation App if needs be. For someone like me who has a very busy working life, normally with a lot of travel, this means I can compose in airport lounges, restaurant tables, etc.

For a busy professional, I can imagine it could be a huge timesaver.

Staffpad is a composition tool. It is for writing music, testing ideas out with libraries that sound 'good enough' at worst, and are often quite impressive.

So whilst I won't be throwing away my copy of Cubase or Dorico, I spend far less time sitting behind a desk as I don't use them for composition anymore. Now they are more of a finishing tool.

I can now sit in the garden with an iPad and a cold beer, instead of being hunched over a desk. Seems remarkably civilised to me.

When I'm happy - I have an often more than serviceable mockup. If you want a full blown high quality audio mock-up - import into a DAW. Want a beautiful engraved score - into Dorico it goes.

(and I haven't even mentioned the live scores updates over Wifi)

That is what Staffpad is for, and it's very good at it indeed.





P.S.I have heard people say for them paper is much faster than Staffpad - well my experience is that isn't the case when I start deleting/editing stuff that doesn't work, or trying out different ideas to see which works. When that happens I end up with a paper avalanche. Perhaps, as a hobbyist Im am not skilled enough to get it right first time ! (The most common feature I am using in Staffpad is cut, copy and paste !)
 
Michael Antrum said:
I think you are a little confused about what Staffpad is actually for. It is not trying to replace or be a traditional DAW or engraving application.

It is a composition tool.

I like, like many, like to write on paper. (There's no way I can carry around all the different parts of the orchestra in my head.)

Then you would normally have the step of inputting the paper score into a DAW and then creating the mockup. Or you may then be then entering it into an engraving program for a beautifully prepared score. Staffpad reduces and simplifies these processes.

When I have got the music written into Staffpad, with very little effort (and sometimes no effort at all) I also have an often very good mockup, plus an XML file I can get into a DAW or Notation App if needs be. For someone like me who has a very busy working life, normally with a lot of travel, this means I can compose in airport lounges, restaurant tables, etc.

For a busy professional, I can imagine it could be a huge timesaver.

Staffpad is a composition tool. It is for writing music, testing ideas out with libraries that sound 'good enough' at worst, and are often quite impressive.

So whilst I won't be throwing away my copy of Cubase or Dorico, I spend far less time sitting behind a desk as I don't use them for composition anymore. Now they are more of a finishing tool.

I can now sit in the garden with an iPad and a cold beer, instead of being hunched over a desk. Seems remarkably civilised to me.

When I'm happy - I have an often more than serviceable mockup. If you want a full blown high quality audio mock-up - import into a DAW. Want a beautiful engraved score - into Dorico it goes.

(and I haven't even mentioned the live scores updates over Wifi)

That is what Staffpad is for, and it's very good at it indeed.





P.S.I have heard people say for them paper is much faster than Staffpad - well my experience is that isn't the case when I start deleting/editing stuff that doesn't work, or trying out different ideas to see which works. When that happens I end up with a paper avalanche. Perhaps, as a hobbyist Im am not skilled enough to get it right first time ! (The most common feature I am using in Staffpad is cut, copy and paste !)
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Well yes, it is a great tool (I assume), but the question was whether it will replace a DAW. And for me, I don't think so
 
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