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Spitfire Audio - "It's all about to change" - BBCSO Core / Discover

Wolfie2112 said:
They blend nicely.

I’m on a 2013 MB Pro. I’m not one of those guys that loads up every single articulation for a template, but I have done a test. I can load the entire BBCSO orchestra, with the default mic position, and it’s about 11GB. This is with a single articulation per instance. When you load an instrument, it loads every articulation for that instrument, which is a huge resource hog. What I do is trash everything except for the single patch I need.
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That's helpful information. Does your 2013 MP Pro have 16GB of RAM?
 
Matt Damon said:
Yeah, but those NotePerformer mockups sound a lot better and go a lot quicker than 90% of most DAW mockups that try to play that kind of music.

And for a lot less money.
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I don't know, the NotePerformer mockups sounded pretty mechanical to me, but to each his own.
 
robgb said:
I don't know, the NotePerformer mockups sounded pretty mechanical to me, but to each his own.
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I'm with you on that. BBCSO is a whole other universe of musical realization.

Lots of respect for the excellent mock ups NP can do. But BBCSO is capable of making music that I'd actually want to listen for.

Also, the Star Wars march is a poor choice for comparison I feel. The GPO has a remarkable passable mock up of that one. I think it's partly that a) there just so much staccato, which isn't the hardest thing to sample, and b) it's just so loud and busy in general that the sheer quantity of instruments playing works to cover up expressive deficiencies in the mix. Just a theory.
 
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ism said:
I'm with you on that. BBCSO is a whole other universe of musical realization.

Lots of respect for the excellent mock ups NP can do. But BBCSO is capable of making music that I'd actually want to listen for.

Also, the Star Wars march is a poor choice for comparison I feel. The GPO has a remarkable passable mock up of that one. I think it's partly that a) there just so much staccato, which isn't the hardest thing to sample, and b) it's just so loud and busy in general that the sheer quantity of instruments playing works to cover up expressive deficiencies in the mix. Just a theory.
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I've heard a lot of decent mock-ups from Note Performer, and I find it remarkable what it can do and how much it has improved ofter the years. It's a very nifty piece of software that I have no trouble recommending to folks who like to work in notation programs. And the same seems to be true of Staff Pad. But I find they produce quite different results from what you can get in a DAW, and I find the latter gives far greater control. I also get far more pleasure crafting the performance in a DAW than working in a notation program and then outputting. And I trained back in the paper and pencil age, so it's not like I learned composition through a DAW or anything. I just thoroughly enjoy the composing process in a DAW.
 
tonaliszt said:
BBCSO PRO vs Noteperformer on the star wars opening.

Regardless, the discovery version is a terrific idea - but I don't see the main audience as music students!
A kid playing the violin and wanting to write orchestra music already thinks of music as notes on a page and is going to start there, not messing around with Garageband. That kid is gonna want to write for his friends, his school band, etc...

The main audience, I think, is musicians and producers in other genres (including kids/students). These people see music as being in a DAW and are going to see the possibilities of utilizing orchestra sounds in their productions. They are gonna be primarily concerned with ease of use, transferability between systems, and sonic fidelity - which discovery nails. These people are also likely to be used to spending money on gear and might be tempted to buy a larger package if they get hooked.

My guess is that spitfire is realizing there is a cap on the film scoring/realistic orchestra samples market, and need to pivot more of their demographics to producers of other types of music if they want to continue the massive and unprecedented growth they have had.
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Sorry but the Noteperformer version sounds very unmusical to me, like everything is hard quantized.
 
jbuhler said:
I've heard a lot of decent mock-ups from Note Performer, and I find it remarkable what it can do and how much it has improved ofter the years. It's a very nifty piece of software that I have no trouble recommending to folks who like to work in notation programs. And the same seems to be true of Staff Pad. But I find they produce quite different results from what you can get in a DAW, and I find the latter gives far greater control. I also get far more pleasure crafting the performance in a DAW than working in a notation program and then outputting. And I trained back in the paper and pencil age, so it's not like I learned composition through a DAW or anything. I just thoroughly enjoy the composing process in a DAW.
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I really thought I would prefer to compose in notation. But very quickly discovered that the expressiveness that comes with working in the DAW really drives how I like to write music (or perhaps: really drives the need to figure out the kind of expressiveness that a given vi is are capable of in the first place).

Which speaks to the question of what precisely are the expressive dimension of the BBCSO that are so exciting to me?

Well it's not the technical advanced in dept of sampling. SSO frequently has better legato and more dynamic layers.

And it's partly the sound. This "clarity and cohesiveness" that everyone agrees is one of the great things about BBCSO without quite being able to define what that means.

But I conjecture that it's also the way a certain type of expressiveness works in some way that is very closely entangled with this sonic quality.

I really have head music with the BBCSO that I would want to listen to - ie as music, not merely a technical demonstration to give a skeletal ideal of what music might sound like.

What I don't like is trying to figure out counterpoint and the more technical aspects of composition in a DAW.

Which is why a round-trip workflow between staff pad and logic could be - conjecturally - mahoosive.
 
ism said:
I really thought I would prefer to compose in notation. But very quickly discovered that the expressiveness that comes with working in the DAW really drives how I like to write music (or perhaps: really drives the need to figure out the kind of expressiveness that a given vi is are capable of in the first place).

Which speaks to the question of what precisely are the expressive dimension of the BBCSO that are so exciting to me?

Well it's not the technical advanced in dept of sampling. SSO frequently has better legato and more dynamic layers.

And it's partly the sound. This "clarity and cohesiveness" that everyone agrees is one of the great things about BBCSO without quite being able to define what that means.

But I conjecture that it's also the way a certain type of expressiveness works in some way that is very closely entangled with this sonic quality.

I really have head music with the BBCSO that I would want to listen to - ie as music, not merely a technical demonstration to give a skeletal ideal of what music might sound like.

What I don't like is trying to figure out counterpoint and the more technical aspects of composition in a DAW.

Which is why a round-trip workflow between staff pad and logic could be - conjecturally - mahoosive.
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I've found it interesting how far I can get along working out counterpoint in the DAW. Much further than I would have thought, and often I come up with better solutions in the DAW than I do on paper. And I find formal organization easier to manage in a DAW than in a notation program. I do however keep a musical notepad on the desk for working things out. I've been using notation programs on and off really since they started appearing, and I've never warmed to them and I basically only use them for engraving examples for publications and for the classroom, never to compose... For me, composition is either paper and pencil or in the DAW. Well, there is a third way, which is noodling about on some instrument real or virtual outside DAW or notation, working out a piece that way and then playing it into the DAW or transcribing it.

I'm basically happy with SSO, SCS, and HZS along with a few supplements, but I find BBCSO alluring for the cohesiveness of the sound. I know that "cohesiveness" is in SF's marketing, but it's also something I hear in pretty much every example of the library I've encountered, good, bad, and indifferent. And it's something that SSO doesn't really have out of the box. So I remain tempted and wonder if BBCSO could serve as a glue to bring better coherence to all the other libraries I have.
 
dzilizzi said:
That was one of the things I remembered. Only because I didn't qualify for a student discount that year, since I was only taking one class.
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This is what I remember too. Presumably it will be at that price again this September if they run the EDU sale again.
 
jbuhler said:
I've found it interesting how far I can get along working out counterpoint in the DAW. Much further than I would have thought, and often I come up with better solutions in the DAW than I do on paper. And I find formal organization easier to manage in a DAW than in a notation program. I do however keep a musical notepad on the desk for working things out. I've been using notation programs on and off really since they started appearing, and I've never warmed to them and I basically only use them for engraving examples for publications and for the classroom, never to compose... For me, composition is either paper and pencil or in the DAW. Well, there is a third way, which is noodling about on some instrument real or virtual outside DAW or notation, working out a piece that way and then playing it into the DAW or transcribing it.

I'm basically happy with SSO, SCS, and HZS along with a few supplements, but I find BBCSO alluring for the cohesiveness of the sound. I know that "cohesiveness" is in SF's marketing, but it's also something I hear in pretty much every example of the library I've encountered, good, bad, and indifferent. And it's something that SSO doesn't really have out of the box. So I remain tempted and wonder if BBCSO could serve as a glue to bring better coherence to all the other libraries I have.
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Interesting. Well, inside or outside of a DAW, I clearly need to do something about my counterpoint.

And investing theory about BBC bringing cohesion to other libraries. Sometime the way I attempt have SSO (+ Albion etc) to blend more cohesively with other libs is to add a touch early reflections. I'll add more of the same early reflections to dryer (non AIR Lyndhurst) libraries. But the thickening that comes with the early reflections gives them a certain cohesion. This comes at the cost of a clarity of course. But sometimes I can find a compromise that I like (and sometimes I just have to throw away the non AIR library as getting it to blend just comes at too high a cost).

So BBCSO as providing cohesion is an interesting idea.
 
Glagoliath said:
Good job at missing the entire point.

Musicians are creating humanization by their playing of instruments.
If all musicians were robots, reading notes and playing notes right on time then all orchestral music would sound quantized.
Of course that note sheets played by a software would sound quantized because it's the same thing as quantized notes in piano roll and in order to have humanized sound, you would need to nudge notes in note sheets, which would be a nonsense.

"Sorry, it sounds quantized".

What do you want, humanized, not quantized notes in note sheets?
Since when note sheets were not quantized? They are quantized by default, they are quantized since they were invented, they are quantized for centuries.
Human element comes from a musician's playing.

That thing must sound quantized by default, when software reads note sheets and plays written notes in note sheets.


Second thing, it's just MIND BOGGLING to me that you completely dismissed what that other person said and where he pointed out that things like Discover are fucking useless to actual students who actually STUDY music because they are not studying music by dicking around in piano roll, but reading and writing actual notes.
Note sheets is their working environment, not piano roll.


After @tonaliszt explained thoroughly things, you just replied with:

"Sorry but the Noteperformer version sounds very unmusical to me, like everything is hard quantized."

like that thing even fucking matters AT ALL.
It's COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to what he said.


A friend of mine, she was studying ethnomusicology and she also studied counterpoint and she needed to compose fugue as an exam. She wasn't studying composition, but ethnomusicology.

Please, I BEG YOU, explain to us as a so-called composer how exactly she could have benefit from Discover?
What, you place notes in piano roll, export .wav file and give to professor?
No, he wants note sheets.

Do you understand?
Students can benefit from Notepeformer, not from things like Discover.
That's what @tonaliszt was pointing out and you replied with:

"Sorry but the Noteperformer version sounds very unmusical to me, like everything is hard quantized."
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Dude, chill. You're veering into personal invective.
 
Glagoliath said:
Good job at missing the entire point.

Musicians are creating humanization by their playing of instruments.
If all musicians were robots, reading notes and playing notes right on time then all orchestral music would sound quantized.
Of course that note sheets played by a software would sound quantized because it's the same thing as quantized notes in piano roll and in order to have humanized sound, you would need to nudge notes in note sheets, which would be a nonsense.

"Sorry, it sounds quantized".

What do you want, humanized, not quantized notes in note sheets?
Since when note sheets were not quantized? They are quantized by default, they are quantized since they were invented, they are quantized for centuries.
Human element comes from a musician's playing.

That thing must sound quantized by default, when software reads note sheets and plays written notes in note sheets.


Second thing, it's just MIND BOGGLING to me that you completely dismissed what that other person said and where he pointed out that things like Discover are fucking useless to actual students who actually STUDY music because they are not studying music by dicking around in piano roll, but reading and writing actual notes.
Note sheets is their working environment, not piano roll.


After @tonaliszt explained thoroughly things, you just replied with:

"Sorry but the Noteperformer version sounds very unmusical to me, like everything is hard quantized."

like that thing even fucking matters AT ALL.
It's COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to what he said.


A friend of mine, she was studying ethnomusicology and she also studied counterpoint and she needed to compose fugue as an exam. She wasn't studying composition, but ethnomusicology.

Please, I BEG YOU, explain to us as a so-called composer how exactly she could have benefit from Discover?
What, you place notes in piano roll, export .wav file and give to professor?
No, he wants note sheets.

Do you understand?
Students can benefit from Notepeformer, not from things like Discover.
That's what @tonaliszt was pointing out and you replied with:

"Sorry but the Noteperformer version sounds very unmusical to me, like everything is hard quantized."
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This depends on the class you are taking. You are talking classical music theory. But what about Studio Production or Film production classes. There are classes out there for making game music. Any class that requires a DAW, this is perfect for. The teacher can have the full version to show what it possible and provide the midi. The students can get a free version of Discover and work with the midi provided. They learn how to use midi to make music. I think it is great.
 
jbuhler said:
I've found it interesting how far I can get along working out counterpoint in the DAW. Much further than I would have thought, and often I come up with better solutions in the DAW than I do on paper. And I find formal organization easier to manage in a DAW than in a notation program. I do however keep a musical notepad on the desk for working things out. I've been using notation programs on and off really since they started appearing, and I've never warmed to them and I basically only use them for engraving examples for publications and for the classroom, never to compose... For me, composition is either paper and pencil or in the DAW. Well, there is a third way, which is noodling about on some instrument real or virtual outside DAW or notation, working out a piece that way and then playing it into the DAW or transcribing it.

I'm basically happy with SSO, SCS, and HZS along with a few supplements, but I find BBCSO alluring for the cohesiveness of the sound. I know that "cohesiveness" is in SF's marketing, but it's also something I hear in pretty much every example of the library I've encountered, good, bad, and indifferent. And it's something that SSO doesn't really have out of the box. So I remain tempted and wonder if BBCSO could serve as a glue to bring better coherence to all the other libraries I have.
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I think I have a similar experience, in that a DAW encourages me to try playing in things by ear that I might not have thought of when working on the staves. But for the nitty-gritty I still need to see it in notation. So for me it's DAW and manuscript paper.
 
What a strange afternoon.

Me and the missus sat outside chatting to our immediate next door neighbour and his wife. The whole close was out as part of the VE day celebrations. We let them get on with that while we had a more personal chat with the other Mr and Mrs.

It felt strange in that apart from the odd skype between immediate family we have only had ourselves for "company." And at times that has come under extreme pressure, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, got back in and powered up YouTube for some quick entertainment while I was having a late tea. I noticed that Spitfire Audio had posted a short walkthrough of BBCSO Discovery.

I thought it was pretty good. But, then again, I don't know much and am easily pleased.

 
Matt Damon said:
Can you give us an example of a mockup that is up to your personal standards?
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My favorite star wars theme mockup is the sample modeling one. I don't have sample modeling myself but I plan to get it soon :). I don't think NotePerformer can support such a performance-based library, though.



There's a long thread that was bumped not too long ago here full of all the best mockups the users here have ever heard. I encourage you to browse it. I don't remember there being many if any NotePerformer mockups in that thread. I could be wrong, though.
 
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