Infinite Series (Aaron Venture) thread

[prodigalson]

Been following this thread as I'm very interested in this library. When they first came out I wasn't impressed with the tone or the demos. My personal cross to bear is that I love the idea of instruments that I can just play and get the right attacks, dynamics, note lengths etc, however I just don't think (generally) anything SOUNDS as good as instruments recorded in an actual space.

I did end up getting the Woodwinds after the last update and have been very impressed. They're very enjoyable to play and generally speaking sound pretty damn good. There is still a very slight modeled quality at times and I'm just not as convinced by the sound stage as when I play the SF, OT or CS winds. But for complex, orchestral writing I thnk they're really great.

I've watched the whole video for IB and I'm really taken aback by how great the solo instruments sound and how great these new IRs are. My only concern is that listening to the demos I'm just not as convinced when they are combined into ensembles. Something disappears, I'm not sure what it is, they just dont blend and it feels sterile.

Is anyone able to show something that would convince me otherwise? So far, everything seems to be just solo instruments. What about a chorale?

 

[Eptesicus]

So I integrated IB 1.4 into my latest template, with a rough mix to match Berlin Brass.

Attached is a comparison between BB and IB with my rough mix. The same motif repeated on various instruments/ensembles, and a big fanfare at the end.

1. BB horn 1
2. IB horn 1
3. BB horn 2
4. BB horn 3
5. BB horn 4
6. BB horn Ensemble
7. IB horn Ensemble
8. BB+JXL solo horns divisi triads
9. IB solo horns divisi triads
10. BB trumpet 1
11. IB trumpet 1
12. BB trumpet 2
13. BB trumpet 3
14. BB trumpet Ensemble
15. IB trumpet Ensemble
16. BB+JXL solo trumpets divisi triads
17. IB solo trumpets divisi triads
18. BB trombone 1
19. IB trombone 1
20. BB trombone 2
21. BB trombone ensemble (2 tenos, 1 bass trombone)
22. IB trombone ensemble (3 tenors only)
23. BB solo tenor/bass trombones divisi triads
24. IB solo trombones divisi triads
25. BB bass trombone
26. IB bass trombone 1
27. BB tuba
28. IB tuba
29. fanfare: Berlin Strings, Berlin Percussion, Infinite Brass (no Berlin/JXL Brass at all)

I mixed IB to roughly match BB - It only took one EQ and one VSL convolution reverb, applied to the same bus for all IB instruments. I disabled the ambient mic on all instruments. The VSL plugin is ideal here because it has a Teldex IR, but also it has specific features that come in very handy - ability to sculpt how hi-pass/lo-pass filters change over time on the IR, and ability to narrow the start/stop times of which part of the IR to use. These features made it possible to add the Teldex tone on top of the Mozarteum Salzburg Infinite Brass IRs without making things too wet at all. I probably should put more effort in trying the Bursa/Studio IRs instead.


My personal conclusion:

- The tone is as great as libraries like Berlin Brass, just a bit different. Who knows, maybe I could even have mixed them to be even more similar if I keep trying. But actually I think the difference is useful. I predict that IB could be mixed to work well with spitfire SSO as well, but I don't have that library.

- One place where IB sounds a little muddy and less precise in stereo image compared to Berlin Brass is when orchestrating individual players in triads. I'm not sure if there's something I can do to mix or program it better to improve that? Most likely this is not something that will matter too much in a composition in practice.

- With 1.4 this time I gave the trombones and tuba a real honest try - which I personally had a hard time with them before. Now I think I've figured out how to program them to sound good, plus tone improvements with 1.4, they sound pretty good to me!

- The ability to program performance nuances in Infinite Brass is WAY beyond what's possible in the other sample libraries I own. This just can't be understated how useful and rewarding it is - the ability to have arbitrary length short notes, the ability to sculpt almost any kind of attack I can fathom with just note velocity and CC1.

This was really interesting, especially the horn comparison.

The infinite horn(s) sound completely different, almost like they are a different instrument (maybe more raspy/trombone like)!

I think tone wise Berlin Brass is a clear winner (for me at least).

 

[Richard Wilkinson]

Can the brass do jazzy shakes? Like samplemodeling when you crank the mod wheel right up? I'm interested in Infinite Brass & WW (when the update arrives!) for mostly straight-up orchestral stuff, but I'm working on a jazzy musical-theatre thing right now and wonder if the brass would suit it.

 

[Jon Aschalew]

Just purchased, excited to try it out, thanks Brian for the recommendation

 

[Jon Aschalew]

I'm a massive fan of Kohei Tanaka's style of writing, this library seems perfect for that sort of stuff!

 

[Brian Nowak]

Just purchased, excited to try it out, thanks Brian for the recommendation

I'm sorry to have gassed you. But... I think it will serve you well!

 

[I like music]

One of my favourite threads, and an example of a helpful community. @shawnsingh this is super helpful stuff, man. You've outdone yourself with the effort and helpfulness. I'll be testing a few things tonight for sure!

As it happens, this thread contains a lot of helpful information for people who are interesting in learning more about the library. Lots of examples (naked and dressed up). Critiques, praise etc etc. All minus the politics, which is great.

I actually think it helps a huge amount that the developer is an active composer, and is constantly involved in the thread. I know it isn't possible for all developers to do this, especially when they gain a super massive customer base, and have many mouths to feed, and a company to run etc etc. So lets enjoy it while it lasts here.

Wishing everyone happy composing!

PS ... noow, where the F*** are those strings?! A less scrupulous dev would have created a pre-order page already (and I would have pre-ordered already) even if the library wasn't coming out this year!

 

[I like music]

This was really interesting, especially the horn comparison.

The infinite horn(s) sound completely different, almost like they are a different instrument (maybe more raspy/trombone like)!

I think tone wise Berlin Brass is a clear winner (for me at least).

I think the horns piece was corrected, in a subsequent post? Aaron actually pointed out that in this example the EQ made it sound a bit muffled. I think Shawn's done an updated test with the same comparison. Check it out and see if you like the tone better.

 

[Eptesicus]

I think the horns piece was corrected, in a subsequent post? Aaron actually pointed out that in this example the EQ made it sound a bit muffled. I think Shawn's done an updated test with the same comparison. Check it out and see if you like the tone better.

Thanks. Have listened to that but still seems to lack that distinct "horny" (lol) tone in my opinion. Still sounds quite thin and raspy and not very warm.

 

[I like music]

Thanks. Have listened to that but still seems to lack that distinct "horny" (lol) tone in my opinion. Still sounds quite thin and raspy and not very warm.

Now I'll have to have another listen. Can never be too 'horny'.

 

[El Buhdai]

- try drawing in slightly pitch bend modulation on very loud notes, especially in very high or low register, to emulate the innacuracy a player might have on holding a loud steady note.

I've been searching and searching for a way to draw in pitch wheel modulation since I have no keyboard. Which CC is it?

 

[El Buhdai]

I've watched the whole video for IB and I'm really taken aback by how great the solo instruments sound and how great these new IRs are. My only concern is that listening to the demos I'm just not as convinced when they are combined into ensembles. Something disappears, I'm not sure what it is, they just dont blend and it feels sterile.

Is anyone able to show something that would convince me otherwise? So far, everything seems to be just solo instruments. What about a chorale?

All of my current projects use sections from Infinite Brass and Winds. Are you looking for demos of naked Infinite sections, or are you concerned about how they fit with the rest of the orchestra? I don't really write brass or woodwinds-only music right now, but I have plenty of examples of the latter if that's what you want.

I assume you already have traditional libraries like most of us did before buying Infinite. Even if you don't like the sections, if you buy Infinite Brass you'll have some of the most expressive instruments on the market (only second to SM instruments) without sacrificing as much tone as SM.

I've been playing with them so much that I haven't had the opportunity to give much feedback on them yet, but let's just say at this point IB is noticeably better than IW at this point.

 

[Sean J]

A less scrupulous dev would have created a pre-order page already (and I would have pre-ordered already) even if the library wasn't coming out this year!

I would actually prefer to pre-order the strings. I can see why Aaron wouldn't want to hold on to money in case things went south for him. It's just a lot easier for me to do this now than at various points in the year.

Can the brass do jazzy shakes?

Easily. It excels at it. I'm working on a demo now of shaky, growly, some cinematic sustains, cinematic jabby stabby staccatos, etc. I'm just writing a few things at once right now and have to prioritize. But yes, it can. Oh yes.

 

[x-dfo]

I've been searching and searching for a way to draw in pitch wheel modulation since I have no keyboard. Which CC is it?

It's not a cc, it's some kind of 'other message' - it can be automated in Reaper as Pitch, in ableton I don't think you can actually do it outside of the Envelope editing in a midi clip.

 

[Richard Wilkinson]

Easily. It excels at it. I'm working on a demo now of shaky, growly, some cinematic sustains, cinematic jabby stabby staccatos, etc. I'm just writing a few things at once right now and have to prioritize. But yes, it can. Oh yes.

Great! How is it achieved? I could see fluttertongue and growl as options but not shakes

 

[El Buhdai]

Great! How is it achieved? I could see fluttertongue and growl as options but not shakes

Me either. I was hoping shakes would come at some point, but I can't think of any way of doing that with vanilla Infinite given the dip in dynamics during slower legato transitions. I guess we'll have to wait for our friend @scoredfilms then.

It's not a cc, it's some kind of 'other message' - it can be automated in Reaper as Pitch, in ableton I don't think you can actually do it outside of the Envelope editing in a midi clip.

Ah so it's on the DAW level then, okay thanks. I'll have to wait until I get a keyboard with a pitch wheel to use Kontakt's pitch wheel then I suppose.

 

[aaronventure]

I've been searching and searching for a way to draw in pitch wheel modulation since I have no keyboard. Which CC is it?

If you want to draw pitch bend, the MIDI controller is just called Pitch. Pitch Bend controller by default in Infinite only bends by 1 semitone. If you wish to bend it further, add a Transformer multiscript (KSP > Presets > Factory > Transform > Transformer) and transform your PB into an unused controller. Then map that controller to the Pitch knob for each instrument you want to bend. Now head over to the MIDI automation tab inside Kontakt and adjust the range for that controller you just mapped (note that 50% is 0 bend, so keep shaving off the same value from both ends until you get the range you desire e.g. 10%-90%, 20%-80% etc.). It's a workaround and works more than fine, once you set it up for yourself you can save the patch so you don't have to repeat it. Just note that you're bending the samples and tone will start to suffer past 2 semitones.

Can the brass do jazzy shakes? Like samplemodeling when you crank the mod wheel right up? I'm interested in Infinite Brass & WW (when the update arrives!) for mostly straight-up orchestral stuff, but I'm working on a jazzy musical-theatre thing right now and wonder if the brass would suit it.

You can play trills right on the keyboard, and you have 127 different velocities to choose from. I guess low velocities could pass for it. Here's an example of the trumpet trilling with all low-velocity notes, and one with all high-velocity notes.

Even though low velocity legato has a longer duration, if you start to play it repeatedly (either for runs or trills) the instrument will know what you're attempting to do and speed the transitions up for you, while keeping the soft response.



That's the current state of it.

 

[aaronventure]

And results change with note duration. Probably the best idea here would be to sequence it until you find the right combination of note duration + velocity that satisfies you. Otherwise no, no scripted shakes yet

 

[El Buhdai]

And results change with note duration. Probably the best idea here would be to sequence it until you find the right combination of note duration + velocity that satisfies you.

That sounds pretty nice! It's not the exact technique of course but it's closer than I thought we could have achieved with 1.4. Bravo!

Thanks for the pitch bending tips by the way, I've been wanting to dial in some struggle for really low and really high notes in brass sections.

yet

 

[shawnsingh]

This was really interesting, especially the horn comparison.

The infinite horn(s) sound completely different, almost like they are a different instrument (maybe more raspy/trombone like)!

I think tone wise Berlin Brass is a clear winner (for me at least).

I suppose it might depend on the exact speakers/headphones you're listening. But in my listening setup, the four different BB horns sound just as different in timbre and character as the IB horn does.

Thanks. Have listened to that but still seems to lack that distinct "horny" (lol) tone in my opinion. Still sounds quite thin and raspy and not very warm.

Are you referring to the solo horn in particular - then I would agree, except I personally like this option of a thinner, more present sound. But when I combined all 6 horns with slightly different pitch bend, I thought it sounded quite thick and solid, slightly more than the BB ensemble actually. Thoughts?