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Working with cues in Logic X

Sopris

Member
I'm wondering if this is the easiest way to do this.

I want to have individual project files for each cue of a film I'm working on. I want the cue to start at bar 9 in the right position within the film, here's what I've been doing.

Say I want my cue to begin at 01:09:56:09.54. I've been going into Project Settings - Synchronization - General and changing the following.

Bar Position - changing from 1 to 9, then changing "plays at SMTPE" to 01:09:56:09.54

Is this the way most people do this in Logic X?

If theres an easier way I'm all ears.
 
I normally don't start at bar 9. I mostly follow the movie. If the scene start bar is at 1583 I go there.
But If I want to start at bar 9 I would set a dummy region to the scene start. Then I would set two tempo events into the tempo list window: my music tempo to bar 8 (to have the tempo for a count in) and a second one to bar 1. Now I reduce the value for the first tempo event and watch the region coming closer to bar 9. Has a bit of try and error to get the tempo to exactly from coarse to fine. It mostly ends up with strange tempos like 41,0782.
 
I'm wondering if this is the easiest way to do this.

I want to have individual project files for each cue of a film I'm working on. I want the cue to start at bar 9 in the right position within the film, here's what I've been doing.

Say I want my cue to begin at 01:09:56:09.54. I've been going into Project Settings - Synchronization - General and changing the following.

Bar Position - changing from 1 to 9, then changing "plays at SMTPE" to 01:09:56:09.54

Is this the way most people do this in Logic X?

If theres an easier way I'm all ears.

The way you are describing is exactly the right way to do it.

I disagree most strongly with what Saxer said - having 1582 bars of empty space in your project before the music actually starts makes no sense, adds all kinds of hassles, and there really is no good reason to do it that way. In addition, having an initial tempo at bar 1 and another tempo event at the bar number your music actually starts at will mean that your count-in might be at a different tempo than the music that's about to start - and this is no good at all. This will be the case unless you manually repair the tempo event at bar 1 every time you adjust the tempo at bar 9. Unless you leave the tempo event at bar 1 to a fixed value while you adjust the tempo at bar 9, the actual SMPTE frame that bar 9 aligns with will move every time you adjust that tempo at bar 1 - resulting in your count-in being at a different tempo than the music that's about to start - again, not good at all. So.....

- Definitely have each cue as a separate Logic project.

- Definitely use bar 9 as the start of your actual music in each cue. This gives you enough pre-roll to be able to hear what dialog / sfx leads into the cue, and if you need to hear the ending of the previous cue and how it will overlap with the current cue, you've got that eight-bar chunk in which you can insert a chunk of the rough mix of that previous cue to hear how it will interface with the current cue. That eight-bar chunk is also enough for any program changes, initial automation events, etc. - the stuff you need to have happening before the music actually starts.

- Going into Project Settings > Synchronization and saying "Bar 9 = SMPTE XX" is absolutely the right way to do it.

- When you do the "bar 9 = SMPTE XX" thing, you're basically creating a tempo map with one tempo change event that occurs at bar 9. The tempo of the eight bars preceding this tempo change event will be the same as the tempo at bar 9. There is no need to create a tempo change event at bar 1 and another at bar 9 - indeed, this will likely create more problems down the road if you decide you want to change the tempo at bar 9, or create a more complex tempo map. In short, do NOT create another tempo event at bar 1 - just let Logic figure out where bar 1 will lie based on the tempo that occurs at bar 9.

- If you do decide to create a complex tempo map, leave that initial tempo event at bar 9, and create further tempo events later in the project as needed. If you then decide that you need to move where the project starts relative to picture, you can just go to Project Settings > Synchronization and change the SMPTE number that bar 9 occurs at, and as long as you have not "locked" any tempo or MIDI events (which keeps them locked firmly to a SMPTE position) then the whole project AND the whole complex tempo map will move together to start at the new SMPTE number you've entered into the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" window. You can also just open the tempo list editor and scroll or type in a new SMPTE number for that initial tempo event that occurs at bar 9. This is absolutely the same as scrolling / typing a new number into the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" in Synchronization Settings. In fact, you can do some experimentation to help you understand how the tempo list and the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" settings interact:

In a dummy project that you don't mind wrecking, enter a value in Synchronization Settings for "bar 9 = SMPTE xx", then open the tempo list editor. You should see a single event at bar 9. Double click on the bar position in the tempo list, and change it from bar 9 to bar 3. Now open Synchronization Settings and you'll see that instead of saying "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" it will now say "bar 3 = SMPTE xx". This will confirm that the first tempo event in the list corresponds to the setting in Synchronization Settings. Clear as mud, right?

In 25+ years of synchronizing Logic to everything from analog multitrack machines in the studio, to DA-88s on tour, to VCRs, Pro Tools rigs, and video playback machines while scoring, I've always used bar 9 as my start point. With over 8,000 cues delivered using this method, I can definitively say you're doing it right!
 
The way you are describing is exactly the right way to do it.

I disagree most strongly with what Saxer said - having 1582 bars of empty space in your project before the music actually starts makes no sense, adds all kinds of hassles, and there really is no good reason to do it that way. In addition, having an initial tempo at bar 1 and another tempo event at the bar number your music actually starts at will mean that your count-in might be at a different tempo than the music that's about to start - and this is no good at all. This will be the case unless you manually repair the tempo event at bar 1 every time you adjust the tempo at bar 9. Unless you leave the tempo event at bar 1 to a fixed value while you adjust the tempo at bar 9, the actual SMPTE frame that bar 9 aligns with will move every time you adjust that tempo at bar 1 - resulting in your count-in being at a different tempo than the music that's about to start - again, not good at all. So.....

- Definitely have each cue as a separate Logic project.

- Definitely use bar 9 as the start of your actual music in each cue. This gives you enough pre-roll to be able to hear what dialog / sfx leads into the cue, and if you need to hear the ending of the previous cue and how it will overlap with the current cue, you've got that eight-bar chunk in which you can insert a chunk of the rough mix of that previous cue to hear how it will interface with the current cue. That eight-bar chunk is also enough for any program changes, initial automation events, etc. - the stuff you need to have happening before the music actually starts.

- Going into Project Settings > Synchronization and saying "Bar 9 = SMPTE XX" is absolutely the right way to do it.

- When you do the "bar 9 = SMPTE XX" thing, you're basically creating a tempo map with one tempo change event that occurs at bar 9. The tempo of the eight bars preceding this tempo change event will be the same as the tempo at bar 9. There is no need to create a tempo change event at bar 1 and another at bar 9 - indeed, this will likely create more problems down the road if you decide you want to change the tempo at bar 9, or create a more complex tempo map. In short, do NOT create another tempo event at bar 1 - just let Logic figure out where bar 1 will lie based on the tempo that occurs at bar 9.

- If you do decide to create a complex tempo map, leave that initial tempo event at bar 9, and create further tempo events later in the project as needed. If you then decide that you need to move where the project starts relative to picture, you can just go to Project Settings > Synchronization and change the SMPTE number that bar 9 occurs at, and as long as you have not "locked" any tempo or MIDI events (which keeps them locked firmly to a SMPTE position) then the whole project AND the whole complex tempo map will move together to start at the new SMPTE number you've entered into the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" window. You can also just open the tempo list editor and scroll or type in a new SMPTE number for that initial tempo event that occurs at bar 9. This is absolutely the same as scrolling / typing a new number into the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" in Synchronization Settings. In fact, you can do some experimentation to help you understand how the tempo list and the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" settings interact:

In a dummy project that you don't mind wrecking, enter a value in Synchronization Settings for "bar 9 = SMPTE xx", then open the tempo list editor. You should see a single event at bar 9. Double click on the bar position in the tempo list, and change it from bar 9 to bar 3. Now open Synchronization Settings and you'll see that instead of saying "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" it will now say "bar 3 = SMPTE xx". This will confirm that the first tempo event in the list corresponds to the setting in Synchronization Settings. Clear as mud, right?

In 25+ years of synchronizing Logic to everything from analog multitrack machines in the studio, to DA-88s on tour, to VCRs, Pro Tools rigs, and video playback machines while scoring, I've always used bar 9 as my start point. With over 8,000 cues delivered using this method, I can definitively say you're doing it right!
Your contribution here is so appreciated. When are writing a book?
 
The way you are describing is exactly the right way to do it.

I disagree most strongly with what Saxer said - having 1582 bars of empty space in your project before the music actually starts makes no sense, adds all kinds of hassles, and there really is no good reason to do it that way. In addition, having an initial tempo at bar 1 and another tempo event at the bar number your music actually starts at will mean that your count-in might be at a different tempo than the music that's about to start - and this is no good at all. This will be the case unless you manually repair the tempo event at bar 1 every time you adjust the tempo at bar 9. Unless you leave the tempo event at bar 1 to a fixed value while you adjust the tempo at bar 9, the actual SMPTE frame that bar 9 aligns with will move every time you adjust that tempo at bar 1 - resulting in your count-in being at a different tempo than the music that's about to start - again, not good at all. So.....

- Definitely have each cue as a separate Logic project.

- Definitely use bar 9 as the start of your actual music in each cue. This gives you enough pre-roll to be able to hear what dialog / sfx leads into the cue, and if you need to hear the ending of the previous cue and how it will overlap with the current cue, you've got that eight-bar chunk in which you can insert a chunk of the rough mix of that previous cue to hear how it will interface with the current cue. That eight-bar chunk is also enough for any program changes, initial automation events, etc. - the stuff you need to have happening before the music actually starts.

- Going into Project Settings > Synchronization and saying "Bar 9 = SMPTE XX" is absolutely the right way to do it.

- When you do the "bar 9 = SMPTE XX" thing, you're basically creating a tempo map with one tempo change event that occurs at bar 9. The tempo of the eight bars preceding this tempo change event will be the same as the tempo at bar 9. There is no need to create a tempo change event at bar 1 and another at bar 9 - indeed, this will likely create more problems down the road if you decide you want to change the tempo at bar 9, or create a more complex tempo map. In short, do NOT create another tempo event at bar 1 - just let Logic figure out where bar 1 will lie based on the tempo that occurs at bar 9.

- If you do decide to create a complex tempo map, leave that initial tempo event at bar 9, and create further tempo events later in the project as needed. If you then decide that you need to move where the project starts relative to picture, you can just go to Project Settings > Synchronization and change the SMPTE number that bar 9 occurs at, and as long as you have not "locked" any tempo or MIDI events (which keeps them locked firmly to a SMPTE position) then the whole project AND the whole complex tempo map will move together to start at the new SMPTE number you've entered into the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" window. You can also just open the tempo list editor and scroll or type in a new SMPTE number for that initial tempo event that occurs at bar 9. This is absolutely the same as scrolling / typing a new number into the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" in Synchronization Settings. In fact, you can do some experimentation to help you understand how the tempo list and the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" settings interact:

In a dummy project that you don't mind wrecking, enter a value in Synchronization Settings for "bar 9 = SMPTE xx", then open the tempo list editor. You should see a single event at bar 9. Double click on the bar position in the tempo list, and change it from bar 9 to bar 3. Now open Synchronization Settings and you'll see that instead of saying "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" it will now say "bar 3 = SMPTE xx". This will confirm that the first tempo event in the list corresponds to the setting in Synchronization Settings. Clear as mud, right?

In 25+ years of synchronizing Logic to everything from analog multitrack machines in the studio, to DA-88s on tour, to VCRs, Pro Tools rigs, and video playback machines while scoring, I've always used bar 9 as my start point. With over 8,000 cues delivered using this method, I can definitively say you're doing it right!

I do this as well, always seemed to make sense. Starting at bar 9 as well. Nice to know I'm in good company.
 
For me, the habit of using bar 9 as the start of the music came from making records, where everything was in 8-bar chunks - verses, choruses, etc., and it was good practice to get in the habit of counting off 8 bar chunks and reflexively thinking of bar 9, 17, 25, 33, 41, 49, 57, etc.

Plus, even when you thought the song was done and arranged, there was always the chance that someone would want to add another 4 or 8 bar intro, so it made sense to use bar 9 as opposed to bar 10 or 20 or some other increment that would throw off all of those downstream boundaries at bars 17, 25, 33, etc.
 
I hope I don’t derail this thread, but:

While this method is perfectly okay I dare to differ…

I used to do one project per cue but the fuller the projects got with instruments and plug-ins and the loading times drove me up the wall I changed the method, at least for this tv show that I have been scoring for years now… with 1000’s of cues.

I make one project per show and start the movie at bar 50, - this leaves me room at the beginning for dumping RMX-Midi files and stuff like that.

My template holds all the instrument tracks (200+) for all kinds of orchestrations I might need for the show. After all this time I know what I need - and I do have very different „bands“ with a few new instruments per show.

Then I start scoring - usually I go chronologically through the show, but I might not. The most important is the tempo track (I work in Logic). I write in a tempo event 4 beats before the start of the cue and - equally important - create a marker over the whole cue. I write in the name, the tempo and the SMPTE position. Then I go to the next cue or I might even jump to the end of the show and do the last cue, although rarely.

If then I ever decide to change the tempo in the first cue - and I do this occasionally - it of course throws off the timing of all the following, maybe 40 cues.
But since I have the SMPTE positions written in the marker I simply insert another tempo event a couple of bars before the next cue and move it up or down until the cue realigns with the position it’s supposed to be on - and all the following cues realign by themselves. With a little practice it goes really quick.

The mixing I obviously do with automation - when I’m finished with a cue I write the starting events all in those first 4 beats after the beginning of the marker, so jumping around the cues is no problem (kind of).

I bounce a rough mix of the cue onto an audio track for two reasons: to remember what it is supposed to sound like - the final mix with my sound engineer might be weeks in the future; presenting the show to the directors/producers is easier (I don’t have to worry about ILLogics sometimes erratic automation behaviour), I can move/copy/delete the audio files if being asked to withaut worrying about the crazy tempo track.

Another BIG advantage is this: since I always get a bunch of shows to work on - usually between 4-6 - and I might need to reuse a cue in a future show, I move the whole music (make sure the markers go as well!) with the „Insert space“ command (or whatever it is called) to bar 1300 or wherever the show I’m working on is over. And I’ll do this with the next shows as well - by the end of the 6th show I might have a project with 9000 bars - with all of the cues available that I have composed so far.
It works. And surely has saved me dozens (or hundreds) of hours of loading time…

Of course this works especially well since I almost always get final cuts. I’ve done it with rough cuts as well but it’s a little more pain - as rough cuts always are…
It won’t work well with insanely different orchestrations, or tempos or other situations I can’t think of right now.
But it did speed up my workflow so much that - for this kind of show - I can’t really think of going back to the one-project-per-cue-method.
 
I used to do one project per cue but the fuller the projects got with instruments and plug-ins and the loading times drove me up the wall I changed the method, at least for this tv show that I have been scoring for years now… with 1000’s of cues.

Why not use VEPro? Then you only load your template once...everything remains loaded between projects (or cues). My first few productions were done as a single cue, until the cues kept changing. The editing was a nightmare! I have done a single project per cue ever since.
 
random note about something I just saw in logic pro (which I might of missed before). you can now sort tracks based if they are used or not. so for big templates and long cues it makes it easier to find the regions.
 
random note about something I just saw in logic pro (which I might of missed before). you can now sort tracks based if they are used or not. so for big templates and long cues it makes it easier to find the regions.

You mean "track alternatives"? It's an excellent feature, sort of like "chunks" in Digital Performer.
 
I think he means:

  • Choose Track > Sort Tracks By, then choose an item from the submenu:
    • MIDI Channel

    • Audio Channel

    • Output Channel

    • Instrument Name

    • Track Name

    • Used or Unused
 
Ahhhh yes....there's also a big letter "H" at the top of the track column that you can turn on/off. I use this feature all the time for hiding all unused tracks.
 
The way you are describing is exactly the right way to do it.

I disagree most strongly with what Saxer said - having 1582 bars of empty space in your project before the music actually starts makes no sense, adds all kinds of hassles, and there really is no good reason to do it that way. In addition, having an initial tempo at bar 1 and another tempo event at the bar number your music actually starts at will mean that your count-in might be at a different tempo than the music that's about to start - and this is no good at all. This will be the case unless you manually repair the tempo event at bar 1 every time you adjust the tempo at bar 9. Unless you leave the tempo event at bar 1 to a fixed value while you adjust the tempo at bar 9, the actual SMPTE frame that bar 9 aligns with will move every time you adjust that tempo at bar 1 - resulting in your count-in being at a different tempo than the music that's about to start - again, not good at all. So.....

- Definitely have each cue as a separate Logic project.

- Definitely use bar 9 as the start of your actual music in each cue. This gives you enough pre-roll to be able to hear what dialog / sfx leads into the cue, and if you need to hear the ending of the previous cue and how it will overlap with the current cue, you've got that eight-bar chunk in which you can insert a chunk of the rough mix of that previous cue to hear how it will interface with the current cue. That eight-bar chunk is also enough for any program changes, initial automation events, etc. - the stuff you need to have happening before the music actually starts.

- Going into Project Settings > Synchronization and saying "Bar 9 = SMPTE XX" is absolutely the right way to do it.

- When you do the "bar 9 = SMPTE XX" thing, you're basically creating a tempo map with one tempo change event that occurs at bar 9. The tempo of the eight bars preceding this tempo change event will be the same as the tempo at bar 9. There is no need to create a tempo change event at bar 1 and another at bar 9 - indeed, this will likely create more problems down the road if you decide you want to change the tempo at bar 9, or create a more complex tempo map. In short, do NOT create another tempo event at bar 1 - just let Logic figure out where bar 1 will lie based on the tempo that occurs at bar 9.

- If you do decide to create a complex tempo map, leave that initial tempo event at bar 9, and create further tempo events later in the project as needed. If you then decide that you need to move where the project starts relative to picture, you can just go to Project Settings > Synchronization and change the SMPTE number that bar 9 occurs at, and as long as you have not "locked" any tempo or MIDI events (which keeps them locked firmly to a SMPTE position) then the whole project AND the whole complex tempo map will move together to start at the new SMPTE number you've entered into the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" window. You can also just open the tempo list editor and scroll or type in a new SMPTE number for that initial tempo event that occurs at bar 9. This is absolutely the same as scrolling / typing a new number into the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" in Synchronization Settings. In fact, you can do some experimentation to help you understand how the tempo list and the "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" settings interact:

In a dummy project that you don't mind wrecking, enter a value in Synchronization Settings for "bar 9 = SMPTE xx", then open the tempo list editor. You should see a single event at bar 9. Double click on the bar position in the tempo list, and change it from bar 9 to bar 3. Now open Synchronization Settings and you'll see that instead of saying "bar 9 = SMPTE xx" it will now say "bar 3 = SMPTE xx". This will confirm that the first tempo event in the list corresponds to the setting in Synchronization Settings. Clear as mud, right?

In 25+ years of synchronizing Logic to everything from analog multitrack machines in the studio, to DA-88s on tour, to VCRs, Pro Tools rigs, and video playback machines while scoring, I've always used bar 9 as my start point. With over 8,000 cues delivered using this method, I can definitively say you're doing it right!

I couldn't have asked for a more clear and definitive response. You're a star...Cheers!
 
Ahhhh yes....there's also a big letter "H" at the top of the track column that you can turn on/off. I use this feature all the time for hiding all unused tracks.

yes, but what if you want to have the unsued tracks?
the sorting feature is nice. I don think i saw that before. ive been using logic since early emagic days and they/apple sneak in cool featuree without me knowing all the time. those guys! :)
anyways. back to cues.

Does starting at bar 9 affect when making notation parts for musicians? (if you are recording live instruments)
 
@munician , Yikes! you're braver then me. I'll never again do more then a few minutes in one project. If the cue comes back, I'll use track import or turn off the audio drivers and switch between the projects lightning fast.

I also do a bastardized version of the "bar 9 plays at" as described by Charlie, I'll keep it at "bar 1 plays at" and park my song position pointer at bar 9 and adjust the smpte while looking at the main transport smpte instead. It stops Logic writing a tempo event at bar 9 and it's the only way I know how to sync bar 9 while preserving whatever exotic tempos (ramps etc) might be happening leading up to bar 9. This is the only way to adapt any resync's further down the timeline in my experience.
horses for courses.
 
@munician , Yikes! you're braver then me. I'll never again do more then a few minutes in one project. If the cue comes back, I'll use track import or turn off the audio drivers and switch between the projects lightning fast.

But when you turn the audio drivers back on - ten minute coffee break...

Of course I'm brave! Until I run into a major catastrophe, that is...and hasn't happened yet.

VEPro might be worth looking into though I don't see yet quite why - for my way of working. Having the whole film with all the music cues right in front of me is a great advantage - I see the arc of the score/movie, I can check the transitions between cues (sometimes key relations bother me that I might not have found out about if seperately working on cues), I find black holes in the score (they DO exist!)...
 
I also use 1 project per cue, unless there are two short ones practically right after each other, but I have always started at bar 1. But I don't do as inventive things with MIDI as Charlie does.
 
But when you turn the audio drivers back on - ten minute coffee break...

Of course I'm brave! Until I run into a major catastrophe, that is...and hasn't happened yet.

VEPro might be worth looking into though I don't see yet quite why - for my way of working. Having the whole film with all the music cues right in front of me is a great advantage - I see the arc of the score/movie, I can check the transitions between cues (sometimes key relations bother me that I might not have found out about if seperately working on cues), I find black holes in the score (they DO exist!)...

Well PT as a dubber pretty much solves the "bird's eye view" issue, I'd still prefer PT on a second machine so I don't have to work in a linear fashion in Logic. Also Vepro has been great over here, wouldn't think about doing anything with scale without it.
 
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