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Why can't they get solo violins right?

I think he's talking about overall Timbre and not playability. Spitfire and Berlin sound like synths to me. IMO the best right now are probably Embertone, Nocturne Series, and Cinesamples. Other smaller companies have some good solo strings that sound nice in the right mix.

I've always wondered why certain libraries can't get the tonal quality/timbre right, even with simple legatos and sustains. CS also has that scratchy synth sound, CSS being a bit better. What's happening in the recording and conversion process?
 
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SoundChris said:
Well I think most people just dont really dig deep enough into their tools (?). You really can get very close - maybe not 100% but IMO 90-95% - to the real thing. I also played violin for many years myself on a decent level and have to say that I was (and stil am) quite impressed how realistic sampled (solo-)strings can sound.

I did that track within about 2 hours playing and testing the Josh Bell Violin in a short demo track which was taken as official demo by embertone back then.



This isn´t even ultra-deeply edited / programmed and could probably stil be done more believable and accurate. It was just performed on the keyboard and improved with some articulations using keyswitches. No external effects or anything - just the sound out of the box. I personally think that the transition at 1:02 might sound a little bit unnatural (maybe I should stil fix that) but that was my fault editing not 100% correctly. I am a huge fan of this library (and no - I wasn´t paid for the track and yes I purchased the library for the full price ;) ) and do think it sounds quite realistic. That is why I am curious to know and understand what doesn´t sound right so I could probably try to fix that aspect. Sure a virtual instrument will never get totally on par with a real performer (not just strings. It is the same thing with any instrument you could think of). But I believe these tools already do the job quite well. Which moments do sound synthetic to you? Do you think the samples / recordings per se are sounding not realistic and are the problem?

Or here another example:


Like I said - even it might be not 100% realistic: does it really sound THAT fake to your ears that you would say there is a massive problem compared to the real thing? IMO the technology and degree of realism especially of this library (and probably some others out there) is stunning and satisfying?
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very Nice Played and sounds incredible good!
 
mediumaevum said:
Thanks @Polkasound and @dflood, for the explanation. I think we'll just have to do better scripting, mixing and other stuff that makes it sound more like real violins, without ever reaching 100 % authentic sound.
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"Sound" is one thing, the other thing often overlooked is "performance", which I think is a more important factor. You could have a very capable VST with all the scripting and articulations, but the result is still unrealistic if the person using it can't articulate it properly and who doesn't understand all the nuances that really makes the violin sound the way it does. It takes a lifetime of practice and skill to play the real thing, and the performance is really intertwined with the player's physique; every player sounds different even playing the same violin. Someone playing on a keyboard with the mod wheel really can never quite get there even if the "sound" is the same.

I learned to play the real thing for 7 years when I was young and never touched it again after I was done. I hated handling and playing the damn thing. But I absolutely love to listen it sing on the hands of a capable and talented musician.
 
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Pando said:
"Sound" is one thing, the other thing often overlooked is "performance", which I think is a more important factor. You could have a very capable VST with all the scripting and articulations, but the result is still unrealistic if the person using it can't articulate it properly and who doesn't understand all the nuances that really makes the violin sound the way it does. It takes a lifetime of practice and skill to play the real thing, and the performance is really intertwined with the player's physique; every player sounds different even playing the same violin. Someone playing on a keyboard with the mod wheel really can never quite get there even if the "sound" is the same.

I learned to play the real thing for 7 years when I was young and never touched it again after I was done. I hated handling and playing the damn thing. But I absolutely love to listen it sing on the hands of a capable and talented musician.
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Pando said:
"Sound" is one thing, the other thing often overlooked is "performance", which I think is a more important factor. You could have a very capable VST with all the scripting and articulations, but the result is still unrealistic if the person using it can't articulate it properly and who doesn't understand all the nuances that really makes the violin sound the way it does. It takes a lifetime of practice and skill to play the real thing, and the performance is really intertwined with the player's physique; every player sounds different even playing the same violin. Someone playing on a keyboard with the mod wheel really can never quite get there even if the "sound" is the same.

I learned to play the real thing for 7 years when I was young and never touched it again after I was done. I hated handling and playing the damn thing. But I absolutely love to listen it sing on the hands of a capable and talented musician.
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It is a very demanding instrument, and also addictive. I studied and worked at it a lot as an adult, performed in rock and jazz settings for a few years. Then one day my spinal stenosis gave me a pinched nerve in the neck, which gave me numbness and pain in my left hand, making it impossible to play for any length of time. So I'm very grateful that the virtual instruments have improved to the extent that they have.
 
mediumaevum said:
Why can't they do well with strings then?
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Intonations and expressions I think is the reason. It is exactly why you can always hear (at least for now) if it is real human talking or "google, alexa, siri, etc". There are unnatural stops in phrasing, weird faded notes in the middle of phrase, strange and off pitches, often I hear very odd interlays especially in legato. To get good violin library to sound "almost" life like, one must play violin or other string instrument on a decent level and have full control to what is happening inside of every note (vibrato and intonation specially!). And of course some people have naturally expressive speech and pretty voice timbre and others training for years and years to get same result, same goes for violin - one does not simply hear the "right" intonations to express it, takes a lot of time and listening to the masters.
 
No sampled bowed strings or winds can really ever sound completely realistic. But I think the difference between close to realistic and completely unrealistic is 90% on the user and not the instrument in most cases.
 
mediumaevum said:
Why can't they do well with strings then?
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Because it's incredibly difficult, I'm afraid impossible.
There are just sooooo many nuances on a solo instrument that are impossible to replicate with samples, unless someone record 3M samples of a solo violin, and even then, the control of those samples would still be unpractical for programming. The amount of huge and tiny differences a violinist (or violist, or saxophonist) can make into just one note is staggering. Plus, every player has their own sound, their own way to vibrato, their own way to attack the notes, the cleanliness and articulation of the notes is different...
Still, for some applications, for pop productions, using certain articulations (usually the shorter ones), some solo strings are ok. But we're still a galaxy far away of making a mockup of Debussy cello sonata or any Brahms' string quartet that sounds realistic.
In a section, all the small details of each note or each legato line is a bit blurred and 'equalized', and that's why sample libraries of sections work better. For solo instruments - strings, but also reeds and brass- there are too many nuances on a solo performance.
 
For me, VirHarmonic's Bohemian Violin comes very close. The fact it changes all the articulations for you is an added bonus - sound great with little to no effort in programming. Perfect for getting inspiring lines down fast.

 
I don't know but to me the free Solo Violin from Performance Samples sounds very convincing. If you don't want it to play some professor sh#t it sounds very good.
In my opinion the developers haven't been able to get the cello right. It always sounds clunky and I completely avoid using Solo Cellos in my music.
 
Hello! First post here. I picked up NI's Stradivari a few weeks back during its intro sale and have just been blown away. Not having worked with a lot of sampled solo instruments before, I'm not sure how this specs up to some of the other heavy hitters, but boy have they don't a good job to create an immediately playable instrument with nothing more than an expression control required.

www.native-instruments.com

Stradivari Violin – sampled violin | Komplete

The distinctive sound of a rare, one-of-a-kind instrument from the world’s most renowned violin maker, Antonio Stradivari. Extensive performance features, 20 articulations with up to three legato transitions each, and multiple mic options deliver nuanced, expressive parts for modern productions.
www.native-instruments.com www.native-instruments.com

Would love to hear from you all how this specs up to others you may have used. I hope they come out with a Cello version. I would buy it the day it came out.
 
I don't understand this discussion at all.
If you wanna have a violin near to realism in your piece, you're happy to use these wonderful vst's like Joshua Bell, Bohemian, or what ever you prefer.

If your piece, isn't able to use a vst to translate the true beauty of your composition, imho you have two choices to take: Change the instrument ( to ukulele?), or get a good violin-player!
Seriously, if you have a paid job to be done, then be sure to get paid enough to get the real deal!


*love the Ukulele
 
Rasoul Morteza said:
If anyone has had any experience with the UVI IRCAM Solo Instruments, please let me know. It looks intriguing.

www.uvi.net

UVI IRCAM Solo Instruments 2 - Avant-Garde Solo Instrument Collection

16 instruments, 550+ playing techniques, experience unparalleled depth and detail with classical and avant-garde articulations recorded at IRCAM Labs
www.uvi.net www.uvi.net
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I’ve had it for about five years, thinking I would use it for the more “outre” sounds—multiphonics, scratchy strings and the like. So far I haven’t really used it much. It takes time to blend the UVI instrument to the to the sound of main Solo instrument track (usually an Embertone, Chris Hein, VSL, etc.). But the sound is good, not too “special” color, ambience, and such. At this point I’ve done this enough that it’s usually worth the trouble. The price is fair, and the UVI player is staightforward, though you have to do the setting up and each instance only has four slots. I would never buy this for a workhorse library and it’s not for composers who love that EPIC SOUND; but if you are even a LITTLE adventurous (that’s me!) it’s maybe a great resource. I’ve tried to mock up flute multiphonics and it takes all day and still sucks the big one.
 
Tom Auger said:
Would love to hear from you all how this specs up to others you may have used. I hope they come out with a Cello version. I would buy it the day it came out.
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The ARE coming out with a full suite of solo strings in fact (sadly, not included with Komplete except for the "big kahuna" collection).

I don't have any experience with any of the other established solo string libraries out there - are there any members of this forum who can compare them for me? I've actually seen indications that others aren't as impressed as I am...
 
Parsifal666 said:
Chris Hein is the best I've ever owned. It can take tweaking/warming up, but I like to think it sounds really good.

Of course, I'm not as much of a stickler for realism. I saw how dumb pretending vis were authentic a long while back (dumb only imo, more power to anyone going for that).

Some would argue that achieving intense expressivity in practically any orchestral instrument is a fool's game because the context of the performance has been taken away. Players, especially those who really like your piece (though true pros are consistently more than competent as a necessary rule) will play your music miles better than the folks hired to record a bunch of orchestral samples. That's why, ultimately, if you truly want your music to be played the way you're hearing it you should aim, financially, mentally...holistically, to have it played by live (or recording) players.

We can fool our families and friends (I should say casual music listeners). But imo virtual composers should accept that they're writing for an objective instrument (or set of) whose player(s) were in a context that had nothing to do with your composition.

I think that might be why vis are getting so popular in the area of music-with-radically-attenuated-dynamics. There's a limited range in music like action trailers (not just), dubstep (or should I say Rock and Pop in general, though I happen to love a lot of the latter two), and other genres that vis can represent perfectly. It's when you're looking for something in the order of the first movement of Mahler's 9th that we are, and looks like will continue to be, fucked. For fun/frustration, try it. Even harder: try Beethoven's opus 132, third movement. There's just too much nuance there, a significant portion of which of which is created via the live performance of said piece. It might be the greatest day in virtual instruments if someone can pull off such a mockup...I personally won't lose sleep waiting for it, folks.

Imo just write, write, write, with a big side order of studying up on both music and your vis. Perhaps not worry so much about power legato and how x sounds like shit whenever I do x. I really believe consistent, religious composing will make you better regardless. It pays off so much, at least it has for me.

Just get things to sound the best they can be, and let me tell you if the day comes when your writing is performed by instrumentalists you will be so happy (I was, still am).

Hokay, well that was kind of on topic lol! Sorry for my Wagnerian longwindedness.
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A note regarding the Chris Hein violin. To my ears, it sounds kinda like the violin is in a tunnel. It's entirely likely that it's just me...
 
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