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Why can't they get solo violins right?

SimonCharlesHanna

Senior Member
But isn't that the goal we want?
Keep lowering the bar and it makes you (and instrumentalists) much easier to be replaced with AI.

Also your analogy is imo inapplicable in this situation. You're talking about technique vs technique and to be honest claiming one is superior is an issue. Whilst I can appreciated shredding and its technical accomplishments, I personally don't enjoy it musically and I am sure many other don't either.
 
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Chr!s

Active Member
Keep lowering the bar and it makes you (and instrumentalists) much easier to be replaced with AI.
We live in a horrible time where objective beauty standards are completely absent because the dominant philosophy of the modern world is "nothing has any meaning other than that which you choose to impart on it."

Thus, mediocrity reigns supreme.

Just layering even a single live performance over samples can make an enormous difference. Nowadays, I find myself less concerned with "what libraries to buy" and "who do I know that can maybe play this?" and buying IRL instruments myself.
 

James H

01001000 01101001
Also your analogy is imo inapplicable in this situation. You're talking about technique vs technique and to be honest claiming one is superior is an issue. Whilst I can appreciated shredding and its technical accomplishments, I personally don't enjoy it musically and I am sure many other don't either.
I never claimed one was superior. However, out of tune is never a good technique.
My point was nobody cared.
 

Rowy

Active Member
Generally speaking, when talking about any library, I've never come across a solo violin that I cannot hear is fake. Its like all solo string instruments lack the dynamics and little things that makes a violin so special.

They do well with wind instruments. Why can't they do well with strings then?
Try Chris Hein Solo Violin.
 

MA-Simon

Senior Member
My friends don't hear the difference.
Yeeeeeears ago when I was starting out they thought my libraries sounded like the real thing. (Halion Symphonic Orchestra)
I have updated to new string ~4-5 times, they can't tell, only I can.
When I say that these new trings have this vibrato and those new transition sample techniques etc., they just look at me weird. It is all rythm and melodies to them, they don't care if something sounds real or synthy.
And there really is no reason for them to care. Both are viable soundtrack options.

I do agree though, it is never the amount of vibrato & feel I want in the moment of writing. So I compose with the samples in mind.
 

Parsifal666

I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
Chris Hein is the best I've ever owned. It can take tweaking/warming up, but I like to think it sounds really good.

Of course, I'm not as much of a stickler for realism. I saw how dumb pretending vis were authentic a long while back (dumb only imo, more power to anyone going for that).

Some would argue that achieving intense expressivity in practically any orchestral instrument is a fool's game because the context of the performance has been taken away. Players, especially those who really like your piece (though true pros are consistently more than competent as a necessary rule) will play your music miles better than the folks hired to record a bunch of orchestral samples. That's why, ultimately, if you truly want your music to be played the way you're hearing it you should aim, financially, mentally...holistically, to have it played by live (or recording) players.

We can fool our families and friends (I should say casual music listeners). But imo virtual composers should accept that they're writing for an objective instrument (or set of) whose player(s) were in a context that had nothing to do with your composition.

I think that might be why vis are getting so popular in the area of music-with-radically-attenuated-dynamics. There's a limited range in music like action trailers (not just), dubstep (or should I say Rock and Pop in general, though I happen to love a lot of the latter two), and other genres that vis can represent perfectly. It's when you're looking for something in the order of the first movement of Mahler's 9th that we are, and looks like will continue to be, fucked. For fun/frustration, try it. Even harder: try Beethoven's opus 132, third movement. There's just too much nuance there, a significant portion of which of which is created via the live performance of said piece. It might be the greatest day in virtual instruments if someone can pull off such a mockup...I personally won't lose sleep waiting for it, folks.

Imo just write, write, write, with a big side order of studying up on both music and your vis. Perhaps not worry so much about power legato and how x sounds like shit whenever I do x. I really believe consistent, religious composing will make you better regardless. It pays off so much, at least it has for me.

Just get things to sound the best they can be, and let me tell you if the day comes when your writing is performed by instrumentalists you will be so happy (I was, still am).

Hokay, well that was kind of on topic lol! Sorry for my Wagnerian longwindedness.
 
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Parsifal666

I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
But isn't that the goal we want? The people paying and enjoying for music/film/tv don't really care if it's real or not. As long as it sound ok.

I remember playing sweep arpeggios at 1000mph on the guitar one night, only one person said "man that was cool" (another guitar player). 10 mins later another guy played 3 out of tune jangly chords an wailed Gun and Roses over it. People everywhere were like "whoah dude... why you not signed?!"
95% of people don't care... the other 5% are on forums and my old gig :D
To me, if I'm satisfied with the sound I'm just going to take that ball and run with it. Because said satisfaction can be a source of terrific inspiration to me and makes me want to write and not worry so much about da tweak.
 

James H

01001000 01101001
To me, if I'm satisfied with the sound I'm just going to take that ball and run with it. Because said satisfaction can be a source of terrific inspiration to me and makes me want to write and not worry so much about da tweak.
Yeah totally. Some of my most unpolished material still sounds the best, as it captured that initial spark. I later ruin it faffing on until 4am
 

Fredeke

Senior Member
Some instruments aren't meant to be played on a keyboard. It's amazing what library developpers already achieve, in transposing wind or string instruments to the keyboard, but until we get a MIDI controller in the shape of a violin, we might never be able to play violin emulations realistically.

(Though the continuous keyboards seem somewhat promising...)
 

mikeh-375

old school
We live in a horrible time where objective beauty standards are completely absent because the dominant philosophy of the modern world is "nothing has any meaning other than that which you choose to impart on it."

Thus, mediocrity reigns supreme.

Just layering even a single live performance over samples can make an enormous difference. Nowadays, I find myself less concerned with "what libraries to buy" and "who do I know that can maybe play this?" and buying IRL instruments myself.
So true Chr!s. Standards of beauty are inculcated by standards of appreciation, which in turn are inculcated by standards of attainment - it's all relative I suppose these days. Sometimes I feel the age of the dumbing down and instant gratification has a lot to answer for.
Quite right imv too, that even one soloist will lift samples onto a new plain of expression and musicality.
 
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Parsifal666

I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
So true Chr!s. Standards of beauty are inculcated by standards of appreciation, which in turn are inculcated by standards of attainment - it's all relative I suppose these days. Sometimes I feel the age of the dumbing down and instant gratification has a lot to answer for.
Quite right imv too, that even one soloist will lift samples onto a new plain of expression and musicality.
One of the reasons I don't do concerti (beside the fact that that genre isn't a favorite of mine) is because, unless I can hire at least the lead solo instrumentalist to record his or her parts, I'm screwed. Concerti require a LOT of feeling from the solo performer in particular (not to mention the painstakingly mapped out interaction between instruments)....I haven't heard anyone get this genre to sound anything like the real deal, even with an assortment of elite-quality vis.

I guess all this could be summed up with: know your limits with vis, and maybe spend less time being concerned with realism when in this day and age many musicians (yes, even bedroom Volk) in the know will spot your vi usage in a heartbeat.

Just write it.
 

mikeh-375

old school
One of the reasons I don't do concerti (beside the fact that that genre isn't a favorite of mine) is because, unless I can hire at least the lead solo instrumentalist to record his or her parts, I'm screwed. Concerti require a LOT of feeling from the solo performer in particular (not to mention the painstakingly mapped out interaction between instruments)....I haven't heard anyone get this genre to sound anything like the real deal, even with an assortment of elite-quality vis.

I guess all this could be summed up with: know your limits with vis, and maybe spend less time being concerned with realism when in this day and age many musicians (yes, even bedroom Volk) in the know will spot your vi usage in a heartbeat.

Just write it.
Last year I recorded a clarinettist for my clt. concerto. The transformation from mock up to live was astonishing for the music and its impact. I also recorded a string trio a few years back, but didn't bother mocking it up, because I knew it would be off-putting at the writing level. On hearing the end result, I was glad I relied on my musical wits and manuscript rather than a DAW because I was unbounded by sample limitations and could write using my full technical and musical abilities.
 

Parsifal666

I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.
Last year I recorded a clarinettist for my clt. concerto. The transformation from mock up to live was astonishing for the music and its impact. I also recorded a string trio a few years back, but didn't bother mocking it up, because I knew it would be off-putting at the writing level. On hearing the end result, I was glad I relied on my musical wits and manuscript rather than a DAW because I was unbounded by sample limitations and could write using my full technical and musical abilities.
Hey that's terrific! The live performance has that certain presence that's difficult for me too describe. And Mike is right, when you hear your mock up performed live...it's like living years and years with a black and white television, then someone drops a colour one into your lap.

That's not to down vis (I personally love them), it's just that I think a lot of people who are serious about their compositions are best off knowing all sides pertaining to their use.

Grab the latest stuff if you want, just don't do it in the name of advanced realism...things can only get so "real" when those sample-recording musicians have only a general idea of how you want something played.

That said, and as I mentioned earlier, for things like mockups and Pop music vis can be devastatingly effective imo.
 
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James H

01001000 01101001
Must be an amazing moment listening to your music performed live. Like you say, impossible to put into words. Magical maybe?
I remember watching Homay's face when she listened to their music being performed for the SA Inside the Score. That feeling again!
I can only relate to playing live gigs, but it's different as I was concentrating on my own performance and not tripping over the monitors (or dodging cabbages).
 

mikeh-375

old school
Must be an amazing moment listening to your music performed live. Like you say, impossible to put into words. Magical maybe?
I remember watching Homay's face when she listened to their music being performed for the SA Inside the Score. That feeling again!
I can only relate to playing live gigs, but it's different as I was concentrating on my own performance and not tripping over the monitors (or dodging cabbages).
Magical and yet a little scary. Even though I know my onions, there was always a lot of money riding on getting things right, just enough to make a small part of me quiver with anticipation and nervous excitement. Recording my own personal music is so much easier and relaxed. Boozers helped enormously after sessions....;)
 

Wolf68

I should compose something.
- I think it depends how much time and effort you put into the midi workout. it's all about putting the right Expression into the right context, it always depends on the Musical Phrase you're in. and a violin is a very expressive Instrument.
- we have nowadays very good violin sample libraries. compare that with - let's say lets 15 years ago.
- it also depends on, which Instrument you Play, I think. me as a former Cellist I am very picky on strings. but indeed, with woodwind and brass midi Rendering results I can live quite good. so it probably depends how good you know the Instrument.
 
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