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Who is hoping to abandon "mockups" and work 100% in notation?

There is a little problem with this request, although I like it a lot and wish for it too.

By the time the tools get to this stage, it will be a nanosecond before they are able to wholesale compose for us too. They will no longer be "tools" but they will be AI composers. Think: you're obsolete buddy.

Be careful what you wish for.

How did Beethoven, Mozart, Bach et al compose the greatest music in history without a single sample or notation program?

I'm asking myself as much as you all.
 
Like many have said real music has so many nuances, that a notation program alone is not likely to come close to that any time soon. Notation alone is just points on a page, without any life breathed in. Many libraries now have elements that are modelled, and these don't work presently well in a notation app.

Yet if you don't have many sound design elements, and your piece is purely crafted as a classical piece from orchestral instruments then a notation app, with some humanisation, might be good enough then to capture the essence of your lines.
 
Over the last year or so I've almost completely switched to StaffPad for composition, even when using its built-in samples when live wasn't a financially-viable option. It isn't 100% of the way to replacing my DAW (and as a last step, I take the StaffPad stems into Logic and massage them-- sometimes mixing in some DAW performances to replace sections), but the small cons of giving up a little control on the exact sound of say, Berlin Strings is more than made up for speed and efficiency-- I can knock out probably 10x more music per day by "programming it in" on a staff with an Apple Pencil. (It is even faster for me than doing traditional mouse-based Dorico/Siblieus/Finale input).

I've been concerned by MuseScore buying them and I'm hoping they don't destroy this lovely product-- I'd also like to see them get some new libraries into their store-- but it definitely shows that a careful and thoughtful approach to written scores can give you something that's very close to DAW work. I worry it is too niche to hang around, but for me it is in something close to a perfect spot.
 
...might be good enough then to capture the essence of your lines.
Yep, but only the essence- not the soul.

(It's debatable how much samples can do that either compared to live instruments, but yet it's a better end-option than just relying on the essence given us by the notation programs.)
 
Yep, but only the essence- not the soul.

(It's debatable how much samples can do that either compared to live instruments, but yet it's a better end-option than just relying on the essence given us by the notation programs.)
This is largely a question of how well the samples are integrated into the notation program. StaffPad does a lot of this for you automatically because the samples are programmed in a lifelike manner-- actually, for some libraries (looking at Berlin strings here), StaffPad's programming often exceeds what I do with the library in a DAW. The tradeoff is that you don't have as much fine-tuned control over exactly how it does that, which can sometimes lead to awkward renderings that don't match like they should. In my experience this happens about as often as I run into the converse problem in a DAW: that I *want* to program a specific line, but the sample just isn't flexible enough to convincingly recreate that line. In both cases, you have to "write around the sample".

Dorico solves the "soul" problem by giving you DAW-like control in the notation app. You can do almost everything you'd do in DP or Logic or Cubase inside of Dorico, and you get absolutely fantastic notation to boot. The tradeoff is now you have all the problems of both-- you sometimes have to endlessly fiddle to get good playback *and* you're starting with MIDI data that isn't terribly artful from the notation program.

Its all just trade-offs, which will be different for everyone depending on what style of composition appeals to you.

The point being: I don't think you *necessarily* lose the soul with modern sample-based playback in notation apps, but it isn't yet to the point where is is convincingly better than working in a DAW unless your compositional approach benefits from notation-first thinking. (But it is getting really, really close). For someone like me who often starts with a pencil and paper, there's a big advantage to StaffPad or Dorico because *I write better music when I start by actually writing* than when I'm relying on my ability to sit down with a MIDI controller and interface with a digital language that is essentially a giant pile of hacks that have been slowly building up for decades that only serve get you to back to something like what notation+live players was in the first place. I spend so much time fiddling with the performance that the writing routinely suffers as a result. For others who prefer DAW-first, that's not true, and I'm not saying they are worse composers as a result-- indeed, many of them are absolutely top-tier and their choice of tools obviously works to empower them to write fantastic music.

We are so close with notation programs to getting something that can really compete with DAW performance and realization-- I just hope developers keep working on it, because I think there's quite a few people like me that would like to give up tweaking endless MIDI parameters, keyswitches, modulation curves, etc. and just *write music*.
 
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You're absolutely right and I certainly don't have any bad words on Dorico+Noteperformer- combo which has been thus far my only experience on notation software playback. (But to be honest, the DAWlike features in Dorico are still absolute garbage for me, having been a Cubase power user for over 15 years.)

But despite of the technology advancing quickly on the notation playback side, I think there is still quite a hill to climb to match the expressiveness of a live-performed sampled instrument- say, Samplemodeling Trumpet to use a bit deliberately exaggerated example. For orchestral music without expressive soloists included, I think it's "getting there" already, though.
 
I completely get that statement.

And I completely agree with you that it can be beneficial to split writing and production into two separate processes. Mostly because production requires a good performance and Notation software isn't that conducive to that. Also, we have so many creative tools in the DAW that it'd be a shame not to use them.

That said, I feel like the DAW isn't conducive to writing anything that you can't play on the piano. Of course, it can be done, many here are proof of that, but if you have to start step-entering notes I think you're better off using notation.

I've been using Dorico for a year now. Before that, I just wrote a general structure and idea on paper and played it in the DAW. Dorico has been allowing me to test more complex ideas and get deeper into the writing side of things, not sure how good Logic Score editor is but Dorico allows for ultra-fast note entry.

If you do proper humanization and tempo mapping within Dorico and use something like NP4 + some libraries of your own I think you can export stems and get a fairly good starting point in the DAW, for adding your own performances and production. And all of that can be done very fast compared to starting to play stuff in the DAW.

I don't know, that's been my experience so far. I'd like to hear everyone's feedback on this because the notation vs piano roll dichotomy always interests me.
you can separate in two processes, but notice that i use them so much in sync as Logic allows me to do, but are two different things: they are different mediums. Either different tracks or different apps

Logic is faster, but needs setup, i will try to show it later
 
But despite of the technology advancing quickly on the notation playback side, I think there is still quite a hill to climb to match the expressiveness of a live-performed sampled instrument- say, Samplemodeling Trumpet to use a bit deliberately exaggerated example. For orchestral music without expressive soloists included, I think it's "getting there" already, though.
You can live perform any instrument into Dorico. You just have to quantize the notation afterwards but the midi data remains. That said, personally, by the time I'm getting very detailed on the performance side of things I'm already on the DAW producing the song.

you can separate in two processes, but notice that i use them so much in sync as Logic allows me to do, but are two different things: they are different mediums. Either different tracks or different apps

Logic is faster, but needs setup, i will try to show it later
It'd be great to see how you approach that workflow, thanks, Emanuel!
 
You can live perform any instrument into Dorico.
Yeah, but then I wouldn't be quantizing almost at all...and then I couldn't personally watch that notation for a second without getting instantly nauseous. :D But like you, it's the same for me when the performance is getting more detailed- it's already DAW time at that point.
 
There is a little problem with this request, although I like it a lot and wish for it too.

By the time the tools get to this stage, it will be a nanosecond before they are able to wholesale compose for us too. They will no longer be "tools" but they will be AI composers. Think: you're obsolete buddy.

Be careful what you wish for.

How did Beethoven, Mozart, Bach et al compose the greatest music in history without a single sample or notation program?

I'm asking myself as much as you all.
they had copists or crazy people who tried to read Beethoven's nightmare manuscripts


MOzart and Beethoven also had less musical problems to solve, and the audience was less ignorant. If Haydn wrote about a Euridice, people knew what it is about and what makes it a great work, without needing much hype and introduction.

I went recently to Jupiter´s symphony in Festspielhaus in Salzburg, and asked 5 old people (apparently those typical "true fans") what the pianists played before this piece because it was not mentioned on the program and I was confused by the arrangement, i started to guess if it was Grieg? It was from Mendelssohn´s Sommernight Dream, the Scherzo, original for orchestra. They also looked like not caring much for the composer, important was the virtuoso arrangement of the piano duo. But this is a compositional masterwork, it is impossible to not care about who MADE it. I could not leave the concert without caring.

So, the act of passively not caring about many things that come FIRST is the ignorance. This is our ethos. No technology will cure this. A

anyways, also the tech side of composition is mostly developed by beat makers and who can´t read, and far away from who stays 5 hours notating a tutti and then probably erasing it later, as I know it is the REAL praxis for the greatest music in history. You have just few of these composers in collab ; many of them don´t care even to answer the mail, i guess.

For example WOlfgang Rhim has an AMAZING handwritten output, and still lives with FAX lol
So companies learn mostly from amateurs, and make things for amateurs, this is my guess.


Even after all this works well, and we notate on computer fast and smoot as on paper, there is the question of the musical problems of our time. That i won´t go into now, i have a channel for this, and may be talking about this on my channel introduction soon



 
You can live perform any instrument into Dorico. You just have to quantize the notation afterwards but the midi data remains. That said, personally, by the time I'm getting very detailed on the performance side of things I'm already on the DAW producing the song.


It'd be great to see how you approach that workflow, thanks, Emanuel!
sure


I have to decide if i do videos that needs a preparation, and take my saturday editing for 6 hrs or videos that i do spontaneously and an adult with patience can understand. Because both get similar engagement


on workflow topic i have many things, and am not sure how to present yet.


WHat i did so far is to give breadcrumbs that are probably not to be found on YT:


for example here below you have notes of me testing Divisi Mate in a very specifique way, not shown by the devs, to see if it is of any use. If i do a video i need to recover the actual creative process going on for the audience understand why i see the problems or advantages i see.


Basically many of my tracks are me testing a very specific way of working, this goes for years already!

For specifique works we have already good tools, but my thought is about what is good as a long term choice. I don´t like the fact of learning something for years and later give it up ; i also don´t like the idea of not composing something because the tech or my technique makes it complicated.
 

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Since the advent of StaffPad, I have been almost entirely notation based. I couldn't make Berlin Strings sound better in Logic to save my life. I do need to enhance some other instruments in Logic occasionally--mostly by layering StaffPad's output with the Berlin libraries.
 
DOes someone writes on paper the reduction and then play direct on Logic Pro instrument by instrument, and then play on piano again to go ahead?


This is worth experimenting, if you can read your manuscript well.


MOst of my problems have to do with me not being able to read my own manuscript, and me changing ideas all the time regarding rhythm, otherwise i would be probably working differently
 
You can live perform any instrument into Dorico. You just have to quantize the notation afterwards but the midi data remains. That said, personally, by the time I'm getting very detailed on the performance side of things I'm already on the DAW producing the song.


It'd be great to see how you approach that workflow, thanks, Emanuel!
I’ve been wondering about this - I wasn’t sure if Dorico could separate score from midi like this - that’s great it’s an option for adding some performance.
 
"the left hand on the piano, trying to find the tones or harmonies which the pencil in the right-hand preserves for eternity—I am always inclined to doubt whether one like this is a real composer, a real creator." Schoenberg , in Style and Idea
 
DOes someone writes on paper the reduction and then play direct on Logic Pro instrument by instrument, and then play on piano again to go ahead?


This is worth experimenting, if you can read your manuscript well.


MOst of my problems have to do with me not being able to read my own manuscript, and me changing ideas all the time regarding rhythm, otherwise i would be probably working differently
I used to write a sketch on paper, and then play everything in. Sometimes fleshing the orchestration more with piano sketches. I don't understand what you mean by "play on piano again to go ahead", though.
 
I’ve been wondering about this - I wasn’t sure if Dorico could separate score from midi like this - that’s great it’s an option for adding some performance.
Yes, notation and midi are separate. You can edit the midi without affecting the notation.
 
Since the advent of StaffPad, I have been almost entirely notation based. I couldn't make Berlin Strings sound better in Logic to save my life. I do need to enhance some other instruments in Logic occasionally--mostly by layering StaffPad's output with the Berlin libraries.
For composing and sketching anywhere and anytime I absolutely love StaffPad as being the best of both worlds. Using Berlin Series and SCS it does sound really, really good - while being super fast to sketch down ideas, without having to worry about articulations/expression maps or anything else that could go wrong technically..
 
you sometimes have to endlessly fiddle to get good playback *and* you're starting with MIDI data that isn't terribly artful from the notation program.
Recording MIDI notes in Dorico (and, as far as I remember, in the two other major notation programs) is allowed and easy. You can even record on more "tracks" at the same time, with no complicate configuration (just select them). The only thing I miss is some sort of adaptive tempo, that I hope will happen sooner or later. But I can live without it.

Paolo
 
I used to write a sketch on paper, and then play everything in. Sometimes fleshing the orchestration more with piano sketches. I don't understand what you mean by "play on piano again to go ahead", though.
i mean to read what was written on piano, improvise, and write again the next part
 
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