Who composes in Notation programs and why?

[dcoscina]

I’m hoping Dorico continues to expand and eventually can replace my DAWs with the same quality finished product without having to spend hours on production. Notion initially had that idea back in 2005 but when Kack Jarrett sold it to Presonus, I think it went off the rails and became more of an adjunct to Studio One. Jarrett wanted to make a program that was not a DAW. It’s still a good composing vehicle but lacks the ability to produce finished score quality that an orchestra can play from.

 

[Sears Poncho]

Sears, you sure you're only 55?..........

I'm sure. I'm diggin the discount at Dennys. (American restaurant)

I really can't stand piano rolls.

I can barely use them.

In the daw I can't focus on voice leading, form, harmony etc the same way as I can on paper.

I've found over the years that most of my composing skill is visual. In ye olden times, I dreamed of having a fantastic midi violin setup that was accurate so I could write with it. I realize now that it wouldn't matter (or work) at all. I rarely use my keyboard for note input. I do much better with harmony/counterpoint etc if I can see it.

 

[Michael Antrum]

I’m in the Dorico / Noteperformer appreciation society too. I compose on the piano and normally develop a two handed piano sketch. I get this into Dorico, and as Mike Verta is often fond of saying, I find that most of the orchestration is already implied in the voicings I have already chosen.

I usually then extract the piano parts up and down the score paper to the relevant instruments which give me a clear view of the SATB lines, and noteperformer is on hand for quick checks to ensure I haven’t gone off piste. It’s a great workflow,

I use an Elgato Streamdeck XL running Notation Express for Dorico, which I find to be a fabulous bit of kit. In fact I like it so much I’m considering buying the smaller one for use with my laptop on the road.

 

[BlackDorito]

Sounds like the broad themes here are:

Notation - facilitates more complexity, control over voice-leading, harmony and form. Some like to hammer out a piano sketch first, then enter it into notation.

DAW - for quicker, simpler projects (Grossly speaking: notation for chamber/orch projects; DAW for media projects). More spontaneous happy accidents.

.. and some people seem to be comfortable with DAW for all projects. Indeed, I've seen some pretty elaborate and sophisticated tracks (either submitted to VI-C, or as product demo tracks) that were clearly implemented in DAWs and I'm thinking sheesh, how did they manage that without notation.

 

[BlackDorito]

I've been moving slowly over to Dorico first from Cubase and it's the best thing I've ever done.

Simon, you've always had some great tracks out there .. and if you are just now switching, they must've been done within a DAW. Are you feeling you will do more sophisticated work with the notational capabilities of Dorico? What draws you to Dorico?

 

[Matt Riley]

I compose with Logic and Finale side by side and sometimes sync’d with rewire. I mostly compose for live musicians and mostly orchestral music so this is a must. I use Logic to test ideas and sketch but I wait until every thing is finalized in Finale before I record in all the parts in Logic.

 

[ism]

So I wrote a reply to this ... that then got a bit out of hand and went off into extended examples of my attempts to understand the nuances of writing particularly to specific strings libraries


... so posted in on this thread:

On Spitfire Studio Strings vs Light and Sound Chamber Strings : A tale of two musicalities.

This is something I wrote in response to post on this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/who-composes-in-notation-programs-and-why.89505/ Which is discussing the process of writing in notation vs directly in a DAW. But my attempt to describe why I’ve found it necessary to...

vi-control.net

But it's still intended as a direct response to the OP.

 

[Michael Antrum]

So I wrote a reply to this ... that then got a bit out of hand and went off into extended examples of my attempts to understand the nuances of writing particularly to specific strings libraries


... so posted in on this thread:

On Spitfire Studio Strings vs Light and Sound Chamber Strings : A tale of two musicalities.

This is something I wrote in response to post on this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/who-composes-in-notation-programs-and-why.89505/ Which is discussing the process of writing in notation vs directly in a DAW. But my attempt to describe why I’ve found it necessary to...

vi-control.net

But it's still intended as a direct response to the OP.

I apologise if I'm simplifying your long post, but it seems very much to me that you're writing music to the samples that you have - in effect writing for the sounds and libraries you use.

Now I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing.

I'm rather at the other end of things. I write the music I hear in my head and feel in my soul (easy with the cheese). Then I notate and attempt to realise it using the tools I have available to me. So it's mostly orchestrated before it even sees a sample library.

So I'm coming at it from the other end.

Do you find it restricting to work in this way ? (Genuine question).

 

[ism]

I'm apologise if I'm simplifying your long post, but it seems very much to me that you're writing music to the samples that you have - in effect writing for the sounds and libraries you use.

Now I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing.

I'm rather at the other end of things. I write the music I hear in my head and feel in my soul (easy with the cheese). Then I notate and attempt to realise it using the tools I have available to me.

So I'm coming at it from the other end.

Do you find it restricting to work in this way ? (Genuine question).

Very much so. And in that I don't necessarily ever expect a real orchestra to program any of my work, the ability to write actual music that can be shared and listened to is very much not a bad thing.


I would nuance your statement "I write the music I hear in my head and feel in my soul" in that music doesn't really exists in a disembodied realm outside of real musician on real instruments making real air wobby in interesting ways.


In my analogy with writing for classical guitar, I'm trying to emphasize the point in how I wouldn't start writing with an abstract chord progressions - I would find something that I could actually perform that offered a seed of nuance and "musicality" (whatever that is).

So in writing what you feel, I suspect that implicit in this is that you have the opportunity to work with real musicians, or have a depth of understanding of real orchestras that far exceeds mine.

Either way, I'm entirely jealous .

If sample libraries had existed when I was a teenager (and not that stupid DX11 I tried, and tried to compose something interesting on) I'm sure I'd be an, almost certainly starving, but certainly full time composer now.

 

[Michael Antrum]

So in writing what you feel, I suspect that implicit in this is that you have the opportunity to work with real musicians, or have a depth of understanding of real orchestras that far exceeds mine.

Either way, I'm entirely jealous .

Don't be - The reason I write with notation is that I simply would not be able to keep track of everything that is going on in an orchestral arrangement using a DAW piano roll, I'd soon be in complete chaos.

Also my ear is not to able to discern everything that is going on in complex arrangements - I need the score to keep track - so it's more my lack of experience and ability rather than a surfeit of it. I'm just an enthusiastic amateur.

But if I were looking at music that was, say, 4-6 instruments - then sure - I could work like that.

But a full orchestra with all those sections and articulations - It would be a disaster....

 

[BlackDorito]

But a full orchestra with all those sections and articulations - It would be a disaster....

Exactly.

The attached screen grab is the section of score I'm working on this morning .. and it represents lots of note edits, transpositions, inserts, cut-paste, change velocity or artic for a particular set of notes .. on and on. I'm working in a two-dimensional visual format and I'm fairly fast at the edits. If I had to switch over to MIDI tracks, it would be a huge relearn for me.

 

[Rodney Money]

If I am writing a piece for a client that the final product must sound good, then I start in a DAW. If I am writing a piece for a client that the final product is to be performed live, then I start straight into Finale. I could care less about the playback quality if I know I’m writing for live players. I have the advantage that I can hear it all in my head and know what’s it gonna sound like live, and I will also physically play every part making sure it’s idiomatic and the ornamentations work. If I am in need of quick money, and I’m done with the client and cannot wait for them to record the piece, then I will make a mock-up of the piece and send it to potential clients. Most of the time in Cubase, but if the Finale mock-up sounds decent I will just used that. Right now I am finishing up a brass band work and arranging my trumpet concerto into a concerto for all brass instruments for different clients. You want to hear the sad thing? I have not opened up a DAW since May.

 

[Michael Antrum]

Exactly.

The attached screen grab is the section of score I'm working on this morning .. and it represents lots of note edits, transpositions, inserts, cut-paste, change velocity or artic for a particular set of notes .. on and on. I'm working in a two-dimensional visual format and I'm fairly fast at the edits. If I had to switch over to MIDI tracks, it would be a huge relearn for me.

Needs more cowbell....

 

[BlackDorito]

Needs more cowbell....

I've been thinking that too. I'm gonna go check my Perc libraries.

 

[InLight-Tone]

If I try to compose with notation I feel like I'm in a straitjacket. I've been reading music all through my Life starting at age 5, and I'm 58. I've also tried composing with coding systems like Common Music, Symbolic Composer etc., thinking I could write better that way but it never panned out.

For me, I'm an extremely physical person, I like to move. Watching Mike Verta play scores of ideas in rapid succession at the piano was inspiring for me. To do that in notation or the piano roll would take ages. Watching DeadMau$ painfully click in notes as he hunted for chords was like watching paint dry. I think physically you transmit your personality better through an instrument like a guitar player.

I have since embarked on upping my keyboard skills with Verta as the target. I try and practice an hour a day if possible. I played for years as a child and in college, but mostly classical repertoire which does nothing for improvisation. In a short amount of time spent doing so, I find it amazing how fast you can run through ideas on the keys and it's really not that hard to learn.

Let's face it, playing in 50% or more of your parts is light years faster than clicking, typing or penciling it in, and in this business, more work produced faster can lead to more dollars earned...

 

[Sears Poncho]

Let's face it, playing in 50% or more of your parts is light years faster than clicking, typing or penciling it in,

Not for me. Or more accurately, that's not how I write music.

I use copy/paste, transpose, Reduce, Explode, arrow up/down buttons. The repeat button (R on Sibelius) might be the one I use most. To write a scale it's R up R up R up R up etc. A passage in octaves? Press "8". Click on a note, press 3 3, it's now a triad. I skip around a lot. "Flute should have melody there". Sibelius has "Post-it Notes", I use those yellow suckers all the time. "Go back and fix measure 13".

This is why it is a "big deal" for me and others to consider jumping ship to another program like Dorico. My buddy uses Finale, a few years ago he bought Sibelius full version and I went to his house to try and give some pointers. He never switched. I can't really blame him. Once you've used one of these programs for years and years, it's so ingrained that it might be better to just deal with the flaws.

 

[Thundercat]

Not for me. Or more accurately, that's not how I write music.

I use copy/paste, transpose, Reduce, Explode, arrow up/down buttons. The repeat button (R on Sibelius) might be the one I use most. To write a scale it's R up R up R up R up etc. A passage in octaves? Press "8". Click on a note, press 3 3, it's now a triad. I skip around a lot. "Flute should have melody there". Sibelius has "Post-it Notes", I use those yellow suckers all the time. "Go back and fix measure 13".

This is why it is a "big deal" for me and others to consider jumping ship to another program like Dorico. My buddy uses Finale, a few years ago he bought Sibelius full version and I went to his house to try and give some pointers. He never switched. I can't really blame him. Once you've used one of these programs for years and years, it's so ingrained that it might be better to just deal with the flaws.

I cannot for the life of me "get" Dorico, yet. I will. After being spoilt with Sibelius all the previous years, it's a tough sell. But I do find the finished scores *so* much nicer in terms of layout and getting what I want with infinitely less fuss!

Old dog, new notation program + determination = future competence

Mike

 

[d.healey]

Let's face it, playing in 50% or more of your parts is light years faster than clicking, typing or penciling it in

Not for me. I treat composition and performance as two separate parts. If I'm writing something that will be played by live musicians then there is no need for me to expend time on a detailed mockup. I can produce a short score ready for a orchestrator/copyist more quickly than I could "compose" in a DAW.

For producing a mockup though nothing beats a DAW.

 

[Sears Poncho]

But I do find the finished scores *so* much nicer in terms of layout and getting what I want with infinitely less fuss!

For me, that's the 64 million dollar question (the whippersnappers will have to google that to see what it means ). Like everybody, I want the parts to look great. I think they do already. Here is a snippet of a violin part I wrote for a show next week. The question is- does it get better? Because on nice paper etc, this looks fantastic IMO. I guess the question isn't "can it be better" but more "does it need to be better"? I would have zero problem reading this down....

 

[wst3]

for me, since you asked...

I work fastest with pencil and paper - right up to the part where I want to change something, then Finale gets the nod. But in either case I find working with notation forces me to think more, or maybe makes it easier for me to visualize what I want to hear, not sure which, but my favorite compositions have all started with notation.

Oddly enough, I do not work quickly when starting with the DAW, but I probably get my finished product in less elapsed time. And of course all the comments about improvisation vs composition certainly ring true. It is a different process, not better, not worse.

For me it is just which is more appropriate. And sometimes it is noodle on the guitar, record that, add some other stuff via MIDI either playing it in or notating it in the piano roll view. Sometimes that is exactly what I need. Other times I need that discipline of working with lines and little dots.

Sometimes!

Really all about the project - if whatever it is I am working on is going to be recorded by me and my libraries then it is going to end up in the DAW eventually. I'm playing with Dorico now, but for all that I love about Finale their Human Playback is anything but.

On the rare occasions that I write for live players I may do a mockup in the DAW, but I won't spend a lot of time on it. The written parts are the goal.

All of this begs the question, and it feels like we are circling around it, but wouldn't it be lovely if we could work with standard notation in a DAW. Seems like the holy grail. Presonus is trying with their Studio One/Notion combo. Logic Pro seems to have a good handle on it. Most of the rest of the DAWs remain DAWs, and the notation platforms remain notation platforms - with the exception of Dorico, which seems to be trying to break the barrier.

I downloaded the free version a couple weeks ago, spent the better part of a weekend playing with it, but the workflow is not natural to me - no surprise there, and we just did not get along. There is probably an issue with the limitations as well, but I was trying to keep it simple so as to not to get ahead of myself. I will revisit it.

So there you go, a thoroughly confused and non-committal answer!