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Which orchestra to record?

The union officials in Nashville are great guys/gals and super easy to work with. No, not everything in Nashville happens on the card. But if you do choose to do it on the card, the people here keep it from being complex. And they most certainly are not @$$holes here.
 
Good to hear, LHall. I've been in at least 10 locals. Some are and some aren't. Usually the smaller fish are since they need the dues $$.

Regardless, OP needs to be VERY familiar with the rules for a union recording. Long breaks, only a certain amount of music can be recorded in a certain time span, a certain number of players might need to be hired, and the fee is astronomical compared to a fair non-union rate. And one person (contractor) needs to get double pay if they also play. I've done lots, but did one as producer and had to be budget guy. It was insane. And all the players were my pals and probably would have done it for beans. At least I got to be hero for one day to them. :)

On the flip side, I did one union recording in the 90s which turned out to be a smash hit. I get about $2,500 a year.... 27 years later.
 
The Bulgarian Symphony Orchestra should cost way less than LA or London, they've recorded Yasunori Mitsuda's Myth: The Xenogears Orchestral Album and it does sound pretty awesome.

 
J Slater said:
I'm in Local 47 and have played on and even contracted a few sessions. I'm a pro-union guy ordinarily, but there's no way I could do this gig union.
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...which is a shame and a crime, because I'm a pro-union guy too...but they do many things that are absurd and send work to Eastern Europe.
 
studiostuff said:
I've heard good things about working this sort of thing in Seattle. It's not, however, a European vacation...
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Yeah, they do quite a bit there, to the chagrin of the AFM. But they definitely have the resume and the equipment needed and do a lot.

I would normally recommend my area (Cleveland/NE Ohio). We have some of the best players on the planet, the Cleveland Orch, CIM, Oberlin etc. But I don't know if we have a space suitable for recording. It's ironic because we have so many groups and such in the area that are all great, but nobody records here. I guess they think the Cuyahoga River is going to catch on fire again. :)
 
J Slater said:
I'm doing a film where I got lucky enough to have a budget for live orchestra. Doing this in Los Angeles (where I am based) would be nice, but I'd like to stretch my dollars a little further by going to Europe. (Plus get a little vacation in the deal.)

I assume London will be as pricey as Los Angeles, but I know that people will often record in Prague, Budapest, even Moscow. The Strezov Afflatus strings sound pretty cool, too, so I'm guessing they were recorded in Sofia? Now that I think about it, I love the sound of Alex's Cinematic Strings, too, so I wonder if Australia would be reasonably priced?

There are two main factors (aside from price! ;) ) that I'm most concerned about. First is the sound. I'm looking for warm and "pretty," especially in the strings. I assume all orchestras can go from epic to pretty, so maybe that's a non-issue, but are there particular orchestras that are known for being more or less so?

The second factor is tuning. Years ago, I did a session on the cheap by hiring college students. They were supposedly "the best" players, but the tuning was a nightmare. I've been scared of hiring a live orchestra ever since.

Any thoughts or advice?
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Last week I recorded in Moscow with The Bow Tie Orchestra.
Vlad Podgoretsky, the head of the operations oever there has studied film scoring in L.A. and has worked for some time for HGW. He definitely knows what he's doing and musically he's solid.

It's my second project recorded there and I am happy with the result. It's the most economical (for the quality you get) of them all.

Not sure if you want to go to Moscow at this time of the year though :)

P.S. I'd skip the idea of hiring college students.
 
Sears Poncho said:
Yeah, they do quite a bit there, to the chagrin of the AFM. But they definitely have the resume and the equipment needed and do a lot.

I would normally recommend my area (Cleveland/NE Ohio). We have some of the best players on the planet, the Cleveland Orch, CIM, Oberlin etc. But I don't know if we have a space suitable for recording. It's ironic because we have so many groups and such in the area that are all great, but nobody records here. I guess they think the Cuyahoga River is going to catch on fire again. :)
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This is surprising and ironic since the recording workshop is there with many engineers. I guess they just need a great recording space of a decent size. Someone should jump on that and make Cleveland “The eastern europe” of the midwest. Great players and room but less overhead and player cost. Could take off considering the short flight time from LA or NY and cheap lodging. If I had he finances I would seriously consider it- Get some great mics and preamps, an HD Pro Tools sysem (Hey, no $250,000 console needed!). At least land there is still cheap ( unlike $1M/acre here in LA!). When my golden ticket comes in... ;)
 
gjelul said:
Last week I recorded in Moscow with The Bow Tie Orchestra.
Vlad Podgoretsky, the head of the operations oever there has studied film scoring in L.A. and has worked for some time for HGW. He definitely knows what he's doing and musically he's solid.

It's my second project recorded there and I am happy with the result. It's the most economical (for the quality you get) of them all.
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Thanks for the recommendation. From a few quick Google searches, Vlad sounds like a very cool and knowledgeable guy, and from the YouTube videos, they get a beautiful sound.

gjelul said:
P.S. I'd skip the idea of hiring college students.
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Oh believe me, I am never, ever, ever, ever, ever doing that again! :grin:
 
FYI: The union does have low-budget, indie/festival, and demo rates. You can get those rates in LA and Nashville. Might be an option worth considering. You'll get better players and you'll be building a reputation among musicians as a person whose gigs are worth doing.
 
JJP said:
You'll get better players
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Here's the real problem:

Union gigs (well, lots of gigs) tend to revolve around "politics". Sometimes, laughably bad players get the good gigs because they are friends with the union reps etc. Sometimes they are just ass-kissers. :)

Union or not, players have to be hand-picked. If one called my local and said "gimme 20 strings for a gig", or called me and said "gimme 20 players for a gig", I doubt any of them would be the same players. I'd pick the 20 best, period.

I've been contractor for union gigs. I've been told "Don't hire John Q, he's behind on his dues". That's musicianship at it's worst, it makes me sick. I've also been told "Hire Sue Smith, I owe her a favor" and that kinda stuff. Garbage. Nepotism and cronyism make for bad music making, and unfortunately many union gigs are filled with it.
 
Oh come on, there is cronyism and nepotism in any part of music. It's wrong to imply that those decisions happen primarily because of the union.

I simply know that in LA and NYC it's much harder to get a full ensemble of the best players if you do a job non-union. The best players want to be treated fairly and paid appropriately. On a union job they know that will happen and they don't have to worry about it. On a non-union job anything goes because there are no rules. If there's a problem, they are on their own and have no recourse.

Most people I know don't call the union local to find musicians. That's usually not the local's role They call a reputable contractor. Good contractors know how to put an ensemble together. They know which people work well together, and they have a good pool of people from which to pull the right ones for a particular job.

Personally, I rarely work non-union. Usually it's only when something falls outside of areas where the union has coverage for some reason. The reasons I do union work are
  1. I know that I and the people who work with me will be protected on the job and terms for the work and payment are clearly defined. No haggling or signing abusive contracts that try to shift liability to me or my colleagues for things we can't control or requiring us to sign away legal rights, etc.
  2. I can call people with the appropriate level of skill and experience, and they'll be happy to do the job if it's union. ("When JJP calls, you can trust it will be a decent gig.") That's quality control.
 
JJP said:
The best players want to be treated fairly and paid appropriately.
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It really depends on the local. In my area, almost all union gigs pay LOWER than non-union. I've been in the AFM for 35 years, so I'm not just pullin' this outta thin air. I've been in 10 locals. Some experiences have been good. Many have been bad. Too many. Way too many.

Ever had a fulltime symphony gig that folded because of BS? I have, the symphony collapsed and we all lost our gigs. The union? HAAAAAAA! Umm, no. Couldn't give a rat's ass, told us "Well you still have to pay dues".

I have, however, seen the union protect some shockingly incompetent symphony players from being fired. If that's a good thing, I'm on the wrong planet. But this, I have seen.

Anyhoo, apologies as I'm not trying to turn this into a union-bashing or union-lovin' thread. Just trying to present the OP with things to look out for. I will give one more example though, somewhat humorous:

I was in an orch that was hired to record "The Messiah". 2 3 -hour recording sessions. Apparently the conductor didn't know much about "recording rules". He never knew that 6 hours of recording is actually 4 hours of recording. That's right, there's 1 hour break for a 3 hour session. The first session, he took his sweet time, we played most of the 3 hours. For the second session, it was told to him "Ummm, you only have an hour". Messiah is about 3 hours long BTW. We recorded maybe half and the CD was called "Selections from The Messiah". :)
 
Sears Poncho said:
Apparently the conductor didn't know much about "recording rules". He never knew that 6 hours of recording is actually 4 hours of recording. That's right, there's 1 hour break for a 3 hour session.
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A one hour break for every 3 hour session! Safe to say, those are not the rules in LA, or London, or anywhere in Eastern Europe!
 
Breaks also depend on the orchestra, for instance here in Sofia @FourForMusic (https://www.fourformusic.com) a session is 60 minutes of recording and then 15 minutes break. This means that a 3-hour session is actually 3 hours and 30 minutes (2 breaks x15 minutes).

Every orchestra is a trill to work with - just make sure you have your project, MIDI, scores, etc. right! ;)
 
Scoremixer said:
A one hour break for every 3 hour session! Safe to say, those are not the rules in LA
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It's the symphony rule for the AFM.
Now, in case anyone thinks I am making this stuff up.... here is a link to the AFM page. To hire a musician for a 3 hour session, it is $434.21, plus $55.62, plus $28 H and W, plus taxes,....... and you can only record 15 minutes of music!!!!! Again, some guy spouting stuff on the interwebs is one thing, but this is the actual thing effective Feb 1. Look at the contractor fee (and you Have to have one)!!!

https://www.afm.org/wp-content/uplo...les-Summary_020119-01312020_Rev.-01.10.19.pdf
 
We always use Budapest Film Orchestra when we need full orchestra, and there isn't the budget to record in London (which is most of the time). Most of the orchestral albums here were recorded in Budapest.

However, no matter where you record, you have to be prepared to do an appropriate amount of post production. There is no point in paying for an orchestral recording, and then cutting corners on editing and mixing, if you want a good result.
 
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