What is WAVES up to?

Discussion in 'Your DAW (Digital Audio Workstation)' started by gsilbers, Oct 7, 2017.

  1. paulmatthew

    paulmatthew Senior Member

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    Milwaukee, Wi
    Their facebook page is blowing up right now with nothing but angry customers right now regarding the update to Waves 10 and rightly so. Between their setup process to the whole WUP thing , they're pretty ridiculous as a company. If you want people to pay for this WUP , then update the damn plugins. New GUIs , new features , whatever, just do some actual updates. All they do is update the install process to a new version and try to scare people into paying more money. It's almost scam-like , really. Thankfully I haven't invested a ton into their plugins, although I do have a decent stock of them , but honestly , there are only a few select ones that I really use frequently. I could probably do without them but they are nice to have. Their customers seem to get more confused with every new system update . I think it's time for Waves to reevaluate their business model and how they do things, and now they've just added a subscription service to the mix.They are losing customers left and right over this type of thing and seems to be getting worse for them by the minute. I don't think I will be buying any more Waves plugins after this point. Just my 2 cents.
     
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  2. elpedro

    elpedro Senior Member

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  3. creativeforge

    creativeforge Barefoot Heart Music

    When I buy equipment, I like to be able to use it without having to re-buy it, although sometimes upgrades are worth it. But THIS is a plugin "manager." Nice. But I'm going to consider other offerings from now on. I'm a hobbyist.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  4. Synetos

    Synetos Gear Addict

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    I have owned Mercury for over 10 years. I also have a Horizon licence for my live band rig. Actually, I own just about everything Waves sells, but I also own all of MeldaProductions and a host of others. I paid a small fortune for Waves Mercury back in the day. Now, everything is stupid cheap. Of course it can be frustrating if I think about it, but how is that any different than any other purchase? I got to use them that whole time, and I still do.

    Plugins are not like physical assets, they are a tool with a useful life. They require maintenance. I bought them when my DAW was Window XP and they were 32bit. Now I can run them on Windows 10 in 64bit. WUP is how that was made possible. I sure as hell dont want to buy Mercury over for evey single OS upgrade. So I pay the fee to "maintain" the useful life though all the changes in technology.

    Plugins are not the same as a rack of outboard gear. They are like Windows OS. I keep paying to upgrade to the next version. A ton of work went into taking Windows 95 to Windows 10. My license fee was the cost to support that initiative. I want Microsoft to be profitable so they keep supporting Windows and making it better. I think people need to think more like that, and not waste time worrying about WUP fees. If you dont like the products, dont buy them. If you do, then just do it, help the company stay alive, or stay on your old version.

    I must say that I run my studio on Digigrid (IOS/IOX) interfaces. I absolutely love them. The Soundgrid Studio driver is AWESOME! They are definitely doing something right with that product line.

    I will stay with Waves as long as they are around. I dont like the pricing model, but I have bigger fish to fry than to worry about WUP being a ripoff. What would suck is if they go out of business after having sunk a small fortune into owning all their stuff. That is where hardware wins. Buy it once and use it until it dies. However, I would be paying more than the cost of WUP in electricity to run all those racks and racks of outboard gear that would be required to have all the tools found in Waves Mercury.
     
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  5. robgb

    robgb I Have Strong Opinions

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    Look. If you sell plugins, just sell the damn plugins and stop with all this Plugin Manager bullshit. Anytime I want to update or buy a new Waves plugin I have to make sure my plugin manager is up to date, then I have to use their install system and from what I can tell there's no way to simply download the plugin and install it myself. As a result, when I updated a recent plugin, an older plugin completely disappeared. I had to reinstall it, again through the Plugin Manager, before I could get it to show up again. Dealing with that kind of nonsense—which I assume is for the sake of thwarting piracy—is ridiculous. For one thing, every single Waves plugin has been pirated, so what are you accomplishing except making it difficult for those of us who actually bought your software?

    I'd add that when I download a demo from Waves, there's no clear way to get rid of it once I've decided it isn't for me. Jesus.
     
  6. storyteller

    storyteller Senior Member

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    Waveshell is a wrapper. It is used to streamline development and allow them to release tons of new plugins as quickly and cheaply as possible. It also future proofs them from new standards taking hold leaving them to rewrite plugins from scratch and allows them to port them to things like Digigrid with ease. While it may thwart piracy, it certainly isn't the intention of using a wrapper from a development perspective. So it makes sense that when a new plugin is created, (at least in v9) it would mean the wrapper would have to be updated. Maybe this changes in v10 (hopefully). ;)

    Not trying to defend their choice of deployment, but it should be said why it is happening to those that might read this thread. There isn't an ulterior motive going on. In fact, even v10 and v9 play nicely with past plugins out of WUP and new plugins still under WUP. Again, no ulterior motive there either. It is just evolution of their product. Overall, Waveshell may be more clunky, but realistically, there isn't another plugin developer with both the quantity and quality of plugins Waves pumps out on a regular basis. And truthfully, WUP beats the heck out of other developer's approaches since it really is only a "when desired" purchase rather than a "now required" purchase. I'm a happy waves user.
     
  7. robgb

    robgb I Have Strong Opinions

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    I don't have a problem with Waveshell. What I have a problem with is the Waves Central app. Just let me download the damn plugins and I'll install them. I don't need another app to help me do that. One that has to be updated every so often and causes more problems than it solves. And I'm pretty sure it's there to help prevent piracy, which, of course, it doesn't do.

    By the way, does anyone know how to UNinstall a Wave plugin? I have a couple of demos I'd like to get rid of.
     
  8. OP
    OP
    gsilbers

    gsilbers Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com


    true. i dont see a reason to update to v10. not sure anyone would have a reason to do so. There are no new OS or DAW updates that need v10 at the moment. There are no new GUIs or waves plugins exclusive to v10 or anything that would get poeple to update.

    So not sure what was the plan. maybe they know something we don't about future OS or DAW development coming this yeaR? OR they have a bunch of plugins updates coming soon that need v10 and want to have the waveshell work well beforehand?
    They really havent developed that many plugins latley compared to the competition. the omni channel seems to be the latest one but most of the signature series was just mixing together different existing plugins code to the artists desires and a new simple gui like CLA series.

    So they have been selling tons of cheapo 29.99 plugins for several years now for this v10 payoff. which is everyone forks over 225 for the wup then its a multi million dollar intake. which is fine for them, but they had to be doing something else, right all along? i cannot see waves only working on a waveshell for 5 years now and a few plugins here and there. they have to have been working on a larger project?
     
  9. pderbidge

    pderbidge Senior Member

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    I agree that Waves seems to be purposefully ambiguous about WUP which causes confusion and people to get upset when they spend money on WUP and find out they didn't have to, especially when the update brought no appreciable value to the plugin. In actuality once you understand WUP and how it works it's not that bad but it's Waves inability to articulate this that is the problem. If they truly are purposefully being ambiguous to gain new sales from the ignorant, then shame on them for these kinds of business practices will eventually come back to haunt them. I will only use WUP when either my most used plugins stop working due to DAW or OS upgrade that necessitates it and even then I may feel I have other tools that do the job just as well and not upgrade. Til then I'll keep enjoying my Waves Plugins as they are nice plugins.

    The problem is that people get the impression that they "have" to do the WUP program or their plugins won't work anymore which is not the case. So my only issue with WUP is not the program itself but rather the way it is communicated.

    For those that understand that you actually can update your less than year old plugins for free still run into another problem with the plugin manager where if you're not careful and you click the wrong thing you could end up deleting your older plugins that you wanted to keep while trying to update the ones you are allowed to update for free. Even if you update correctly there seems to be an issue with them not always showing up in the DAW and having to do it all again until you get it right or end up calling support to figure it out. In Waves defense their support is fairly responsive and quick to resolve all these issues.

    My issues is more with Waves plugin manager than WUP. It is obvious that the plugin manager exists to fight piracy but more often than not it ends up being a nuisance to paying customers and scares away future purchases due to disgruntled users so in the end is the money spent on R&D for these measures really saving them from lost sales due to piracy? I would argue no but that's another debate for another time.
     
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  10. paulmatthew

    paulmatthew Senior Member

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    Milwaukee, Wi
    I'm not putting Waves on blast here. It's just clear that they've confused a large portion of their customers yet again with this version 10 update. All I was really saying is that they complicate things so much for their users that frustrations run high with them . Waveshell, waves version 9, waves version 10, wavescentral , WUP....... That's a lot for a customer to siphon through to figure out what they need, if they need it and what the heck everything is . There has to be a simpler way for Waves to do this .
     
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  11. kitekrazy

    kitekrazy Senior Member

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    I remember when Waves use to have a "forced" WUP and there was a 40 page thread at NNS of people not buying their stuff anymore. I don't think they have erased their bad image yet after the numerous affordable plugins. I'm still not a fan of their single use license. Most of my purchases have been duplicates.

    Izotope, Melda, and IK have much more flexible licensing. IK updated all of my TR 4 individual plugins for free. Melda has lifetime updates.
     
  12. OP
    OP
    gsilbers

    gsilbers Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com


    And to point to out that there is really no need to really upgrade to v10.

    Somehow al the posts in different forums seems to be about people thinking there is some sort of need to upgrade when there is not.
     
  13. paulmatthew

    paulmatthew Senior Member

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    Milwaukee, Wi
    That's kind of how Waves pushes this out there though. I think it's why a lot of their customer base feels the way they do right now, thinking they need to update.
     
    gsilbers likes this.
  14. jacobthestupendous

    jacobthestupendous not that stupendous

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    Does anyone else automatically read "Waveshell" as "waves hell"? I can't be the only one...
     
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  15. pderbidge

    pderbidge Senior Member

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    Utah
    I agree on the single use license thing but it sounds like using a USB stick for the license is a workaround for that. It's a shame they refuse to communicate their policy better because in all reality it's not that bad and for $30 per plugin (on sale) they are an incredible value. I think the fault lies within their marketing department. I think they seem too concerned that if people actually "understand" their update policies and how it works then they won't get as many people signing up for WUP. I noticed that they had a fairly decent blurb on their front page today about WUP but they still neglected to mention that you don't need it if you have a plugin less than a year old. It's all in the marketing spin. They could easily tout the free update to those with plugins bought less than a year ago as a positive and made customers feel like Waves was throwing them a bone but instead they miss the opportunity to do so by scaring people into WUP. I have always found that the more transparent a company is with a customer the better the long term relationship. It would also help waves to better understand what their customer do and don't want so they can improve, but I digress. I still love the plugins I have from them and will continue to use them.

    I love Melda's stuff and when they have their big sales where you can get a plugin at $50 with lifetime free updates it does make more sense to start moving over to these kinds of deals from the competition.
     
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  16. JEPA

    JEPA Senior Member

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    is Waves applying business predatory practices ? everlasting $29 for plugins that cost presumably $399?

    [​IMG]
    Waves WLM Plus Loudness Meter
    On Sale Now

    costed $399.00| now $29.00

    I am after this plugin, but i could see other developers suffering from this practices. We fall like flies when such offers appear...
     
  17. kitekrazy

    kitekrazy Senior Member

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    I don't think so. It probably was that price at some time. Some of the sample libraries we own were over $1000 when first released. Look at the stuff announced on APD, you see the same tactic.
     
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  18. OP
    OP
    gsilbers

    gsilbers Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com

    kinda true. but it was fairly recent that the price went way way down.
    and all their plugins say price of $330030303030390394u30834u043890439349
    now for only 29.99.
    so im with jepa on this one. not only harms small developers but also it hurts waves as I've keep seeing comments in facebook groups stating that UAD and other plugins are way better than waves... and its basically because the price is so cheap that in any business and marketing strategy, cheap spells out bad quality. regardless of the actual product. marketing 101. so it might be good for some time but later any are plugin will be expected to cost 30 bucks when in reality its closer to 100 once you add all the development time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  19. OP
    OP
    gsilbers

    gsilbers Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com

    waves is freaking annoying.. the waves central "NEEDS" to update and all it does it downloads the latest v10 installers so you are FORCED to install v10..

    I just disconnect wifi, login into the old app and instal v9 products. geez... these guys.

    not sure if im forced into buying the wup if I had installed v10 but still. but still.. I just hate the imaginary forced updates
     
  20. kitekrazy

    kitekrazy Senior Member

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    I'd hate to believe that theory. Lets consider when EWHO Gold can be had for under $300 and Platinum for under $500. Bad quality. I'm sure when people pay a large amount for something they will say it's better. I'm sure if I paid for a UAD plugin I would say they are the best ever.
    I could make an endless list that proves "cheap spells out bad quality" is nonsense. See Gibson's troubles. Bad quality doesn't have a price tag.

    That's a very flawed logic. Once development costs are covered prices can be lowered. I know it's easy to bash Waves but they do have some quality products.
     

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