What is the 'essence' of EIS?

[Hannes_F]

I can not talk authoratively about EIS but here are some observations from somebody that has been a watcher from the side since a few years and probably knows more about it than he should because of some analyzing skills:

- I think that EIS can be like a fresh breeze for anybody that already knows music theory and wonders into which direction composition could head to in the future. It also seems that it gives the chance to re-think many things from scratch even if you thought you already knew much.

- I have observed that for many members here EIS has triggered their productivity. They have become better composers than before, period.

- It definetely opens the possibilities, pallete, freedom.

- It costs time. And money. And time. And money.

- It does not teach how to compose. Somebody that can write will learn to write better but if he had no ideas before he will hardly have more after.

- There are some artefacts that I observe and do not like too much. I guess they are not really necessarily intrinsic to EIS but happen to happen. One of it is the preference of b accidentals over #, the other is the disregard of global accidentials. I think both are quirks (I can only guess that the b thing comes from the jazz descent that uses many instruments tuned in Bb) and have essentially nothing to do with the mathematical understanding behind EIS itself.

- If I had the money and the time I would pick up systematical EIS studies better sooner than later because I think it is one of the doors into the music of the 21th and 22th century.

- YMMV

 

[rJames]

For me, EIS enables me to more efficiently get what I hear in my head onto paper (or into the computer).

It helps me to analyze music to more quickly to "get" what modus the composer was using.

It helps me keep my arrangements cleaner than they would have been without EIS.

Our human subconscious hears what is around us, scrambles then regurgitates it. (my personal opinion, not guided by EIS principles) This is why music evolution has a smooth curve to it and not a radical break. Although radical breaks have been attempted.

I think you are more likely to create a hit song if it just comes to you one morning. Cause it is a regurgitation of previous hits. Right? Some people can do it better than others. When I come up with a song in the morning, its nothing, when Mc Cartney does it, it is the beginning of a new (hit) album. It resonates because it is part of the resonance.

BTW the tune that just comes from in your head is absolutely essential as far as I am concerned. And it is something the EIS is not trying to teach.

But if you want to write cues like the old Twilight Zone episodes or cues from some Alan North I've heard that reminded me of EIS; you are better off with an EIS-like approach than one that relies on a tune in your head.

What would Mozart have written if Spud had been a mentor?

SPud wanted to come up with a new approach to music. Why study a 300 year old system to write music in a new millennium?

I've heard that Frank Gehry could not do the kind of structures he designs without computers. (I think he said that)

 

[mf]

You may call trolling whatever you disagree with. Glad to be of help with the visibility. Moving on...

Of course EIS gives results, what I was asking for is: successful result. Successful, as in, you know, lots of people actually buying records that are obviously based on the EIS rules.

Btw, what "equal intervals" are we talking about? Can't possibly make music with equal intervals, can you?

 

[jsaras]

[quote="mf @ Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:02 pm
And another debatable thing: is there such a thing as equal intervals? Music can't be made of equal intervals but only of unequal ones. An interval can only be equal with itself - which is self evident so useless to mention. Two different intervals can't be equal, can they? You may duplicate an interval, transpose it and superimpose it over itself, but then you get different intervals, unequal to the original one. Since the musical intervals are unequal, then what "equal intervals" is this all about?[/quote]

Unfortunately you are operating under a complete misconception of what EIS is, so it makes it difficult to comminicate meaningfully. Some of this is because of your preconceived ideas and some of it is because of the terms that Spud chose to use to communicate his system of harmony.

On the most basic level, the term "equal interval" refers to root movements. The root movements in "tonal" harmony basically come from major and minor scales, which by definition are varying combinations of half-steps and whole steps, i.e., "unequal".

The EIS course dispenses with consideration at the very outset. A student learns to write progressions using "equal interval" root movements (half steps only, whole steps only, minor thirds only, etc.). I think of those exercises as a series of "controlled experiments". By learning to master all possible root movements, you automatically have encompassed the root movements that would also occur in an "unequal" system. In this sense, EIS encompasses all harmonic systems.

I think of it as working a Rubiks cube in every possible permutatation. All doors are open and you are taught a technique that allows you to manipulate any harmonic material to its fullest.

 

[Stephen Navoyosky]

With much interest I have been reading this thread and surprised that EIS students haven’t yet caught on to the motive of mf in keeping this thread alive. One look at the mf profile reveals covertness.

Without delving into the particulars, let’s categorize the various types of members on boards, forums, or discussion groups.

1) Actual participants; people who not only believe in the purpose of the forum but who also strive to contribute and step outside their comfort zone.

2) Users. They want free information and if one allows them to, they will suck a person dry. As soon as the free information is gone, so is their loyalty. It goes with the nature of message boards.

3) Information gatherers - They come to a board, post argumentatively to extract responses, criticize the responses for further explanations, and.... After arguing with what is taught to them, may take the same message to other groups and present it as if it was their own…or write a book, DVD, folio, etc.

5) Flamers - These are people who come to try and upset the group.

 

[nikolas]

Stephen: where is No. 4? :D

Everyone: It does seem that the discussion started from a couple of things that Midphase mentioned, that I also had a "problem" with. Fortunately he was around to explain himself, very ellegantly and thus my "problem" was solved, but my interest in EIS grew further.

mf appears to have switched from a quote of Kays to the whole of EIS (I'm talking like it was some kind of place, a person, etc, but it still remains a method!).

Very nice to see a thread in the 2nd page over here, but other than that, there is, actually nothing more to see. I am quite happy with the replies I got over my questions and satisfied at the overall discussion of this thread (sadly not the harsh feelings that seem to have arised...)

Let's make some music, EIS or non EIS and be happy to share it with others, as well as keep helping musicians, since we are musicians! Long live VI!

 

[Hans Adamson]

Of course EIS gives results, what I was asking for is: successful result. Successful, as in, you know, lots of people actually buying records that are obviously based on the EIS rules.

Isn't Herbie Hancock an EIS graduate? If EIS theory played any part contributing to his reharmonizations of the songs on the album "Possibilities" I would want to study EIS as well. Listen to his version of "I just called to say I love you" on this album.

 

[Craig Sharmat]

You may call trolling whatever you disagree with. Glad to be of help with the visibility. Moving on...

Of course EIS gives results, what I was asking for is: successful result. Successful, as in, you know, lots of people actually buying records that are obviously based on the EIS rules.

Btw, what "equal intervals" are we talking about? Can't possibly make music with equal intervals, can you?

I am not here to explain how this works, you are on your own.

Herbie Hancock,Oscar Peterson,Jimmy Haskell (one of the all time great pop string arrangers), David Blumberg (grammy for Ray Charles, American Idol) Quncy Jones. all have used EIS. del hake the arranger for the Simpsons, Danny Pelfry on Felicity. there are many many more. do you really need me to go on?

 

[bigdog]

Hey Craig, I've got an idea. Let's keep the course and our cultish ways to ourselves and then we'll get ALL the gigs, and do them with one hand tied behind our backs!

Then they'll BEG us to tell them how we do it!

just a thought...

Danny P

 

[germancomponist]

....
Isn't Herbie Hancock an EIS graduate? If EIS theory played any part contributing to his reharmonizations of the songs on the album "Possibilities" I would want to study EIS as well. Listen to his version of "I just called to say I love you" on this album.

+1

 

[requiem_aeternam7]

ok but my point about EIS being sort of like Scientology is that it seems a lot like a closed cult system where people are very guarded of everything. 3 pages here so far and countless pages elsewhere and on other forums and I have yet to EVER EVER EVER see an EIS "DISCIPLE" ever divulge a single morsel of information, like a rule or anything. I mean come on there's a dozen books or more, why can't you people give us something, just a few rules from EIS or anything like that to whet our appetite so we can decide if it's something for us? I understand the course costs money ($300 or so?) but hey as I type this I currently have a bookshelf behind me with over 500$ worth of music theory books and scores. I have everything from Fux to Jeppesen to Alfred Mann to more obscure things and if anyone wanted to know a rule of counterpoint I would gladly open a book up and give it to you despite the fact that I spent hundreds of dollars over the years on composition material...so what's the big secret about EIS then? Do you have to sign a waiver of some sorts prior to obtaining instruction in the EIS system that confines you to secrecy forever? Come on, give us a few rules or tell us the basis of the system, explain it to us so we can decide whether it's worth pursuing. I can't believe how many pages of fluff are devoted to EIS where not a single shred of information about the system is ever given. Tell us the basic concept, why the cabalistic Scientology-esque secrecy? It really is disturbing and reeks of one of those scams.

 

[midphase]

I'll give you rule #1 for free!

"Write like mad."


I'm not kidding either!

 

[Craig Sharmat]

ok but my point about EIS being sort of like Scientology is that it seems a lot like a closed cult system where people are very guarded of everything. 3 pages here so far and countless pages elsewhere and on other forums and I have yet to EVER EVER EVER see an EIS "DISCIPLE" ever divulge a single morsel of information, like a rule or anything. I mean come on there's a dozen books or more, why can't you people give us something, just a few rules from EIS or anything like that to whet our appetite so we can decide if it's something for us? I understand the course costs money ($300 or so?) but hey as I type this I currently have a bookshelf behind me with over 500$ worth of music theory books and scores. I have everything from Fux to Jeppesen to Alfred Mann to more obscure things and if anyone wanted to know a rule of counterpoint I would gladly open a book up and give it to you despite the fact that I spent hundreds of dollars over the years on composition material...so what's the big secret about EIS then? Do you have to sign a waiver of some sorts prior to obtaining instruction in the EIS system that confines you to secrecy forever? Come on, give us a few rules or tell us the basis of the system, explain it to us so we can decide whether it's worth pursuing. I can't believe how many pages of fluff are devoted to EIS where not a single shred of information about the system is ever given. Tell us the basic concept, why the cabalistic Scientology-esque secrecy? It really is disturbing and reeks of one of those scams.

why would Herbie Hancock need to scam you? He makes nothing btw on EIS
why would any of these working composers need to scam you? they also make nothing for promoting it
Most are unwilling to teach due to time restraints. it is just that the course works.

Here is a simple VLeading rule for you. If the Bass goes down anywhere between a major 3rd to a minor 2nd the treble goes up. By up that means a 3rd to a 5th or a 5th to the root, or root to a 3rd if we are dealing in simple triads.. Now we can move parralell if it is major or minor 2nd, but generally we like movements contrary to the bass. we also get extra movement while VL ing by moving tones like a 5 to 5+ or 6 or 3 for 2 or 4 for 3 or you make lines with all of these and have them available at all times as long as you do not create a cluster. It continues to build from there but my guess it quickly gets too deep for most people unless they have the background. these are not hard and fast rules but basics to build on. also we do our VLing in horizontal terms meaning we write for one instrument at a time and not use an entire vertical structure and go to the next. this way we are writing for single players and not pianists.

By the way there is no real tangible concept, just a way to organize thoughts musically and give avenues to create things. it is a full and deep composition course.

if you were in LA any of the EIS people would have no trouble showing you the course in person. All of it, it just can't be done over the internet as the books need to be purchased and the EIS teachers have no jurisdiction over the books. they are owned by the Murphy estate.

 

[bigdog]

this is hilarious!
it's a cult - off with their heads!
sorry, I find this very entertaining - please continue!

 

[Craig Sharmat]

yeah don't drink the red juice.

 

[midphase]

There should be a contact e-mail for David Blumberg who is the guy who you would need to connect with in order to get the gears rolling.

Usually you start with Book 1/2 (two books rolled into one)...you can use it as a "trial" and see if it intrigues you or not. Usually Book 1 will take 1 or 2 lessons, and Book 2 close to a year! Actually it all depends on how quickly you move, how often you schedule your 1 hour lesson, and how quickly you grasp the essence of each lesson. Some of the guys here can probably make it through each book in 1 month....but I wouldn't recommend it since there really is a lot to explore in each lesson and trying to rush through it will probably result into what I experienced which was too much information too fast without having a good grasp on how to use it.

 

[requiem_aeternam7]

so you HAVE to schedule a lesson(s) with someone to get a hold of the study material? What if I want to just get the books for my own enjoyment and don't want to pay extra for any lessons with anyone?

 

[Craig Sharmat]

thank you mr. sharmat. that is all I was asking for. Seems like elementary counterpoint rules to me..i.e. always go for contrary motion with oblique being 2nd best and parallel being the worst, etc, etc...I must admit, this thread HAS in fact intrigued me about EIS, for instance I have come to know that sharmat is one of the best composers on this site and did not know he was involved in EIS, if I could be 1/3 as good as him I would take the plunge
Only problem is it seems EIS course "purchase" page is down on their site and from the cursory investigation I did, has been down for apparently 'years'. What is up with that and how would someone be able to get their hands on an EIS book?

You are correct in this is elemental which is why i posted it. If i tried to explain something more complicated it would most likely be lost in translation and I would have to type for a long time. The books do that better than I. BTW Parallel is generally worse and anyone can do it but there are times when it is great and especially if you can move parallel against the bass movement. Bigger structures often work good like this, 9th chords etc.

The EIS site is in need of major repair but at least it is something to look at. any of the teachers on the list can get the books, David, myself etc.

Spud who created the course said he did not want the books out w/o a teacher, these were his demands. some students have received books,raced ahead complained about the course and when the assignments were looked at had it wrong. Spud did not want the material misunderstood. For this reason he said only graduates can teach the course, and occasionally under special circumstances advanced students can teach up to where they have achieved.

The course is expensive for most, time consuming for all and usually totally worth it.

 

[Leandro Gardini]

so you HAVE to schedule a lesson(s) with someone to get a hold of the study material? What if I want to just get the books for my own enjoyment and don't want to pay extra for any lessons with anyone?

I, like you and many others, asked this same question before starting studing EIS. Believe me, it´s not a self study course. You really need to have a teacher to properly get all the materials of each lesson!!!

 

[Tariqh Akoni]

thank you mr. sharmat. that is all I was asking for. Seems like elementary counterpoint rules to me..i.e. always go for contrary motion with oblique being 2nd best and parallel being the worst, etc, etc...I must admit, this thread HAS in fact intrigued me about EIS, for instance I have come to know that sharmat is one of the best composers on this site and did not know he was involved in EIS, if I could be 1/3 as good as him I would take the plunge
Only problem is it seems EIS course "purchase" page is down on their site and from the cursory investigation I did, has been down for apparently 'years'. What is up with that and how would someone be able to get their hands on an EIS book?

Hello...

I agree that the proof is in the pudding. There are so many great working composers who espouse the EIS system it's quite compelling. I think your revelation about the counterpoint is correct. EIS has some revelatory elements, but it really covers a lot of fundamental information in a really organized way. The Book II material is intense in that it almost goes through every permutation of voicing and all the possible leading tones (i.e. thinking horizontally). Even the chapters on triads will have you thinking in a new and different way. One of the most compelling arguments for the system was from friends who were former Berklee students (as I am) who felt their writing had improved by leaps and bounds through the system.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest downloading the EIS brochure and looking at some of the examples for further illustration.

I'm loving the course, and I find myself thinking about it constantly. I'll wake up in the middle of the night wanting to work on my homework, and I find myself seeking out other EIS students to converse. This might lead to the feeling of secrecy because we use a different verbage sometimes to describe things. For instance, I may call a friend and say "when I use 'Bass in motion II' and COP with my E4 progression in Scale #1, I like to use 4 to an NCT of 4+ or a DPT of 5 to 6". This is the kind of thing that takes a lot of explanation, but is common in EIS analysis (and once again, I'm a neophyte).

Anyway, hope I didn't confuse matters (I'm sure I did, and I apologize) :lol: Good luck. I would enthusiastically encourage you to find out more.

T