Wet libraries

[paulthomson]

Just because one guy does it (and who knows how much time he puts into it), it doesn't disprove the practical reality of anything I said.

Very little time beyond the actual composing time. There’s almost zero “post production” to my knowledge. Not just him either - he was just one example I gave as a very obvious one.

It does disprove what you said which was that you can only write long note ambient noodles with our wet libraries.

All best,

Paul

 

[Jimmy Hellfire]

It does disprove what you said which was that you can only write long note ambient noodles with our wet libraries.

Wasn't what I said. Whatever! Not gonna get caught up in what is about to quickly morph into another Spitfire-related drama during which their staff once again suddenly feels unfairly treated.

 

[paulthomson]

If the music isn't simplistic or background noodle, it more often than not falls apart with just the wet stuff. The important musical content is always bolstered with something more dry, malleable, reliable. The wet stuff is more for dimension and "sheen".

 

[Jimmy Hellfire]

What I said is how I like to work and what my findings are. It is what it is. I made neither absolute statements nor did I single out one particular brand as being the root of all evil. But apparently, as someone who currently has close to 700 GB of SF samples installed on my drives, I nonetheless need to justify my comments because God forbid, it could be seen as contary to the branding and marketing mythology. That's weirdly narcissistic and a bit silly, sorry.

Oh, but Andy Blaney does this and that. Well what's the flipside of that? Are all and any productions with dry-ish libraries terrible? There's positive examples of people making awesome stuff with both wet and dry libraries. The strengths and weaknesses of both are not shrouded in mystery. So what's the point?

 

[rottoy]

That's some wildly dramatic inferences there, Jimmy.
All I can see is Paul chiming in on how useful and malleable wet samples can be, not acting on behalf of Spitfire to defend any potentially bruised egos.

 

[Michaelt]

Are all and any productions with dry-ish libraries terrible?

I have yet to hear anything done with dry or semi-dry virtual instruments that matches the realism of Andy's demos on the Symphonic Woodwinds page, or his solo violin performance patch demo, etc. (and maybe one or two OT demos). Charming and interesting musically? Sure, that's doable. But rivaling that level of sonic authenticity? Not even close.

I might not be able to do that myself, but I think someone at his level is a great litmus test of what libraries can do what at full power. I'd rather put my money on what those people can do the most with, and try to get there, than settle for something lesser out of the gate.

Like Saxer said, for many of us it seems like a choice between playability and sound, but there is stuff out there that shows that doesn't *have* to be the case. In the best hands, one school of thought outperforms the other. That's the point.

 

[Jimmy Hellfire]

I have yet to hear anything done with dry or semi-dry virtual instruments that matches the realism of Andy's demos on the Symphonic Woodwinds page. Charming and interesting musically? Sure, that's doable. But rivaling that level of sonic authenticity? Not even close.

I might not be able to do that myself, but I think someone at his level is a great litmus test of what libraries can do what at full power. I'd rather put my money on what those people can do the most with, and try to get there.

Like Saxer said, for many of us it's a choice between playability and sound, but there is stuff out there that shows that doesn't *have* to be the case. In the best hands, one school of thought outperforms the other.

The truth of the matter though is, let 100 people do it, and 70 of them will get a more realistic musical performance out of the dryer libraries than out of the wet ones, even though some will beat the wet ones into submission as well.

 

[Michaelt]

Ok then. Clearly you've performed extensive studies on this that I have not.

 

[Alex Fraser]

I like it wet. Wetter than wet. Wetter than a British summer. Which is pretty wet. It's a personal preference and really boils down to the fact I hate setting up artificial 'verb, placement etc. Or that I'm lazy. Take your pick.

On the wet vs dry arguments: There's way too much absolutism being bandied about as usual. There are too many variables in play. I've used wet libraries that are smooth as butter to write with and dry ones that are like pulling teeth. And also the opposite.

And yep. Mr Blaney is the litmus test for me. No one plays the virtual orchestra better. He could make God's own music with dry, wet and anything in between.

 

[Jimmy Hellfire]

On the wet vs dry arguments: There's way too much absolutism being bandied about as usual.

For some kind of reason this particular topic turns into a religious war very quickly.

And yep. Mr Blaney is the litmus test for me. No one plays the virtual orchestra better. He could make God's own music with dry, wet and anything in between.

Not sure what the guy is doing or what kind of special sauce he's on, but I wanna know where to buy it. He already did incredible stuff - with dry samples as well - even before he was with SF.

 

[Jdiggity1]

Not sure what the guy is doing or what kind of special sauce he's on, but I wanna know where to buy it. He already did incredible stuff - with dry samples as well - even before he was with SF.

I think there's a bunch of custom stuff used in his demos. The old 'bespoke' libs, etc.
And after a while you notice that some of the quicker and nimble ornamentations he uses (which would normally be near impossible to pull off with 'wet libraries') pop up in a few different demos and thus might actually be recorded ornaments, not the traditional note-by-note playable instruments.(?) You can hear, for example, the "Harry Potter Falls" used in a few AB demos (listen to the start of Kraken to know what I mean). Those 'falls' appear again in Sedition (another demo for SSB) as well as this wonderful effect in the violins at 0:47. This is purely speculation on my part, but I'm assuming these are custom samples/bespoke. Or at least samples he has been able to manipulate.
To me, injecting a few recorded ornaments or FX like that really help with perceived realism.
Anyway, I don't think it's completely fair to use Andy's demos as an example of what everyone should be able to achieve.

 

[novaburst]

Libraries that are too wet are completely unusable,

100% true...... my box set fell in a bucket of water now it just will not work with anything,no matter what mic i put on it,when it dries out hope it sounds better, but dryer library's always work better in the mix, have you ever tried baking some reverb with dry string library's with a pinch of EQ its a very good recipe.

 

[JohnG]

There's a lot of custom stuff used in his demos. The old 'bespoke' libs, etc.

Are you saying Andy is using samples in library demos that are not part of the libraries? I seriously doubt that.

 

[robgb]

That is rubbish, at least if you're trying to create an orchestral concert-listening experience.

If that's what you're going for you're probably better off hiring an actual orchestra. Most of us are producing recorded music. A different beast.

 

[Michaelt]

If that's what you're going for you're probably better off hiring an actual orchestra.

And those of us who want that but can't afford to casually hire an orchestra?

 

[JohnG]

If that's what you're going for you're probably better off hiring an actual orchestra. Most of us are producing recorded music. A different beast.

Ha -- I didn't exactly mean what I wrote, now I see it. I meant "recorded orchestra" whether that's for a soundtrack or a symphony.

 

[Michaelt]

He already did incredible stuff - with dry samples as well - even before he was with SF.

Hearing what the same very capable person can accomplish with libraries embodying two different philosophies is exactly what convinced me that one approach was undeniably better.

 

[Jdiggity1]

Are you saying Andy is using samples in library demos that are not part of the libraries? I seriously doubt that.

No. But a demo for a Brass library, could (and does) contain strings and woodwind samples from libraries that are not part of that series. Just as Hollywood Strings demos will contain samples from other brass/woodwind libraries that are not part of the hollywood series.

 

[robgb]

I have wet libraries and I have dry libraries (including Spitfire's), and I much prefer working with dry libraries. Why? Because I'm not interested in recreating a concert experience. I'm interested in creating a musical recording. And dry libraries give me more options. It's as simple as that.

 

[Michaelt]

Well, we have all certainly put this debate through its paces many times before. Apparently we like to remind ourselves of how we feel about it pretty frequently, though.

I've always liked big spaces for music in the real world. With recordings, real or fake, I want that space to be very present, but still with a clear image of the players themselves.

Maybe I've just spent too much time listening to real recordings that exemplify that, and hearing it in person, and it's made me more anal about this than is necessary. Bad positioning and reverb/EQ rigamarole pulls me out of virtual performances way faster than sloppy phrasing.