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Wanted: Someone who knows how to Link Sibelius to Cubase, Midi mock up specialist.

maximuss

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Hi,
I am looking to find some who can link Sibelius to Cubase via Loopbe30 or by any other means.
Someone with experience with soundsets and orchestral tools libraries, eastwest libraries.
I currently use Sibelius 7.1.3 and Cubase 7.5. I find midi mock ups very time consuming. What I am trying to achieve is to be able link Sibelius to Cubase via Loopbe30 so my my mock ups are finished at the same time as I am doing the score in Sibelius.

Thank you
 

Woodie1972

Active Member
You should try Rewire for this. I used this for Finale and it worked pretty well. You need to set it up so that Sibelius is the master and Cubase the slave. You can add this in the studio menu, if I'm correct. It's been a while since I used it, as I'm on Dorico now, but it shouldn't be too difficult.

Not that it's really an answer to your question, but isn't Pro Tools designed to work next to Sibelius (and vice versa) to achieve what you are looking for?
 

cornelisjordaan

Cornelis Jordaan
While in principle what you desire is a really nice thought, in practice I've found that the more "complex" the libraries you're using, the more clumsy trying to make a reasonable mock-up directly from notational input becomes. There seems to always be a sacrifice on one side or the other.

There is another path which you might consider (if you haven't already tried it) - exporting your notation as midi and importing it into a cubase template which has been set up with expression maps. There is still editing to be done of course, but it can go much faster since all the notes are already there... all that remains is to assign appropriate articulations and work on the CC data.
 
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maximuss

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You should try Rewire for this. I used this for Finale and it worked pretty well. You need to set it up so that Sibelius is the master and Cubase the slave. You can add this in the studio menu, if I'm correct. It's been a while since I used it, as I'm on Dorico now, but it shouldn't be too difficult.

Not that it's really an answer to your question, but isn't Pro Tools designed to work next to Sibelius (and vice versa) to achieve what you are looking for?
Hi Woodie,

yes it is, but I think it is quite expensive.

Thanks
 
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maximuss

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While in principle what you desire is a really nice thought, in practice I've found that the more "complex" the libraries you're using, the more clumsy trying to make a reasonable mock-up directly from notational input becomes. There seems to always be a sacrifice on one side or the other.

There is another path which you might consider (if you haven't already tried it) - exporting your notation as midi and importing it into a cubase template which has been set up with expression maps. There is still editing to be done of course, but it can go much faster since all the notes are already there... all that remains is to assign appropriate articulations and work on the CC data.
Hi Cornelis,

Yes, I have tried this many times, but I can never seem to get it right. Having saying that, I did not use expression maps. It seems to me that different articulations are recorded at different levels in different libraries and you are forever trying to balance everything. I can never get it right, probably because I don't know what I am doing of course, then things like reverb and making it sound like an orchestra is playing in the same space seems to be another challenge.

Thanks for your reply
 
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maximuss

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You should try Rewire for this. I used this for Finale and it worked pretty well. You need to set it up so that Sibelius is the master and Cubase the slave. You can add this in the studio menu, if I'm correct. It's been a while since I used it, as I'm on Dorico now, but it shouldn't be too difficult.

Not that it's really an answer to your question, but isn't Pro Tools designed to work next to Sibelius (and vice versa) to achieve what you are looking for?
Rewire never worked with Sibelius and cubase but I think it works with Protools.
 

MauroPantin

I engrave little black dots
Yes, I have tried this many times, but I can never seem to get it right. Having saying that, I did not use expression maps. It seems to me that different articulations are recorded at different levels in different libraries and you are forever trying to balance everything. I can never get it right, probably because I don't know what I am doing of course, then things like reverb and making it sound like an orchestra is playing in the same space seems to be another challenge.

Thanks for your reply

Unfortunately, you need to balance your orchestra in your DAW, anyway. Sending the MIDI through loopbe30 or by means of importing the MIDI file will make no difference in terms of the levels during your playback in Cubase; it saves you the step of importing and assigning articulations and CC data (which is great, of course!) but the relative volumes would have to be set in the daw OR adjusted through CC7 from the Sibelius, there is no way around that with this approach.

A few alternatives I can think of if you don't mind:

The first option is to use NotePerformer. For me, it is a must when using Sibelius. It does not sound as great as a deeply sampled orchestral library, but it is quite well balanced and the integration is amazing, it works wonderfully right out of the box. I have spent quite a lot of money on software, samples, you name it. Noteperformer is the best money I ever spent. They offer a trial version and rent-to-own. Link: https://www.noteperformer.com/

If you are using EastWest there used to be a Sibelius Sound Set file for those, I'm not sure if it is maintained anymore, It looks abandoned but it might be worth a shot to write to the developer and see if they still offer support. I don't have any of those but I understand they were quite good. Here's the link: http://www.soundsetproject.com/

I suppose you could also try to use NotePerformer as a guide to balancing your template, and then do the loopbe30 thing adjusting your DAW template to the Noteperformer output. It would be a lot of very tedious work, but if that's what you are after, I would investigate that option.
 
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maximuss

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Unfortunately, you need to balance your orchestra in your DAW, anyway. Sending the MIDI through loopbe30 or by means of importing the MIDI file will make no difference in terms of the levels during your playback in Cubase; it saves you the step of importing and assigning articulations and CC data (which is great, of course!) but the relative volumes would have to be set in the daw OR adjusted through CC7 from the Sibelius, there is no way around that with this approach.

A few alternatives I can think of if you don't mind:

The first option is to use NotePerformer. For me, it is a must when using Sibelius. It does not sound as great as a deeply sampled orchestral library, but it is quite well balanced and the integration is amazing, it works wonderfully right out of the box. I have spent quite a lot of money on software, samples, you name it. Noteperformer is the best money I ever spent. They offer a trial version and rent-to-own. Link: https://www.noteperformer.com/

If you are using EastWest there used to be a Sibelius Sound Set file for those, I'm not sure if it is maintained anymore, It looks abandoned but it might be worth a shot to write to the developer and see if they still offer support. I don't have any of those but I understand they were quite good. Here's the link: http://www.soundsetproject.com/

I suppose you could also try to use NotePerformer as a guide to balancing your template, and then do the loopbe30 thing adjusting your DAW template to the Noteperformer output. It would be a lot of very tedious work, but if that's what you are after, I would investigate that option.

Hi Mauro,
I currently use Noteperformer and yes, it is fantastic, the best money I have ever spent also, but I was looking for something with more detail like the orchestral tools library that I own. I just do not know how to get that integration and balance that Noteperformer can produce, I don't possess that kind of expertise with midi.
Maybe this is not the best approach as Cornelis has said

"While in principle what you desire is a really nice thought, in practice I've found that the more "complex" the libraries you're using, the more clumsy trying to make a reasonable mock-up directly from notational input becomes. There seems to always be a sacrifice on one side or the other."

Someone has suggested using VePro to host the libraries for Sibelius, do have any knowledge about this?

Warm Regards and thank you
 

MauroPantin

I engrave little black dots
@maximuss

I understand where you are coming from. If you are a notation oriented person then it is definitely a challenging situation, it is a workflow issue to transfer everything to the DAW in order to get a realistic result. I am formally trained as well and it is definitely a yet unresolved problem. I think Cornelis is spot on.

Noteperformer has been the best possible option for me. I then have an orchestral template that is well balanced, or at least balanced enough so that the Noteperformer playback transfers relatively well to the DAW. But it is never perfect and when you import the MIDI in the DAW it does take some tweaking. That is as painless as I have been able to make it.

Regarding VePro, I have little experience because I don't have it, I have never used slave machines and I have ample RAM in my workstation. It is my understanding it allows for better memory management and MIDI and audio transfer from one software to the other. But it does not come with instrument definitions, so while it would help with the technical solution, the balancing and articulation allocation part would still need to be done manually or through some other solution.
 

Vi-Chaos

New Member
You really have two options:

1. Fight with Sibelius to get it to do things it was not designed to do.
2. Jump ship to Dorico.


Think about it. Dorico and Cubase are the same company. Sibelius is their rival. So they are always going to make it so Dorico functions within Cubase better.


I think if you are a Cubase user, you are just denying the inevitable with Dorico.

Anyways, for #1 what you could also look into is this tool for Sibelius

 

muk

Senior Member
@maximuss Cornelis and Mauro are giving very good advice in my opinion. What you are trying to achieve is getting mockup-quality sound without having to create a mockup. Unfortunately, this is not possible no matter which tools you are using. If you are a notation person, which you seem to be, NotePerformer is giving by far the best results created from notation. If you want better sound still, there is no way around creating a proper mockup, and that is a timeconsuming task that requires experience.

Exporting midi from a notation program to a daw - no matter if it is done by exporting and importing midi, rewiring, loopbe or any other method - will not give you better results than NotePerformer. Only when you start to meticulously finetune the midi data in your DAW, the sound will start to improve. Or better yet, if you play in every part and then tweak it.

Sample libraries require a lot of fiddling and tweaking to sound realistic, and there is no shortcut for this. The best and most expensive sample libraries sound very underwhelming when directly fed from a notation program.

In my opinion, the two options you have are sticking with NotePerformer, or learning how to create mockups, which is time consuming indeed.
 

Woodie1972

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I use both Dorico (coming from Finale) and Cubase and being a classical trained musician, I'm of course notation oriented, which makes working in a piano roll is challenging, to say the least. Fortunately the score editor in Cubase is pretty powerful and once you know how to use it (as in: think different and sometimes opposite to what you're used to), you can write your music in it like you do in Sibelius. It's by far no notation program, but unless your music is highly graphical with lines and symbols, the score editor in Cubase may work for you.

Regarding playback in Dorico: it does a fair job, especially with not too demanding scores it can be used for mock-ups. Tweaking, mixing and working out the smaller details, which make a mock-up from good to great, you really need a piece of software like Cubase.

VE Pro is great for hosting your libraries as it will highly reduce the stress on your system. What I do sometimes is write the score in Dorico, with VE pro as host, save the Dorico file as midi, (but keep VE pro open!), close Dorico, import the midi file into Cubase and link the parts to Ve pro again.

The positive side to this is that all midi messages from your Dorico file are in the file and will trigger both the keyswitches and other info like CC1 and so on, so you don't need to enter this again.
Sounds like a hell of a job, but takes not so much time, especially once you know how to do it.
 
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maximuss

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@maximuss Cornelis and Mauro are giving very good advice in my opinion. What you are trying to achieve is getting mockup-quality sound without having to create a mockup. Unfortunately, this is not possible no matter which tools you are using. If you are a notation person, which you seem to be, NotePerformer is giving by far the best results created from notation. If you want better sound still, there is no way around creating a proper mockup, and that is a timeconsuming task that requires experience.

Exporting midi from a notation program to a daw - no matter if it is done by exporting and importing midi, rewiring, loopbe or any other method - will not give you better results than NotePerformer. Only when you start to meticulously finetune the midi data in your DAW, the sound will start to improve. Or better yet, if you play in every part and then tweak it.

Sample libraries require a lot of fiddling and tweaking to sound realistic, and there is no shortcut for this. The best and most expensive sample libraries sound very underwhelming when directly fed from a notation program.

In my opinion, the two options you have are sticking with NotePerformer, or learning how to create mockups, which is time consuming indeed.

Hi Muk,

what you have stated above seems to be the undeniable truth about this conundrum that many of us struggle with.
From what everybody is saying, if you don't want to fiddle with Midi for days, just stick to Noteperformer.

many thanks
 
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maximuss

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I use both Dorico (coming from Finale) and Cubase and being a classical trained musician, I'm of course notation oriented, which makes working in a piano roll is challenging, to say the least. Fortunately the score editor in Cubase is pretty powerful and once you know how to use it (as in: think different and sometimes opposite to what you're used to), you can write your music in it like you do in Sibelius. It's by far no notation program, but unless your music is highly graphical with lines and symbols, the score editor in Cubase may work for you.

Regarding playback in Dorico: it does a fair job, especially with not too demanding scores it can be used for mock-ups. Tweaking, mixing and working out the smaller details, which make a mock-up from good to great, you really need a piece of software like Cubase.

VE Pro is great for hosting your libraries as it will highly reduce the stress on your system. What I do sometimes is write the score in Dorico, with VE pro as host, save the Dorico file as midi, (but keep VE pro open!), close Dorico, import the midi file into Cubase and link the parts to Ve pro again.

The positive side to this is that all midi messages from your Dorico file are in the file and will trigger both the keyswitches and other info like CC1 and so on, so you don't need to enter this again.
Sounds like a hell of a job, but takes not so much time, especially once you know how to do it.
Hi Woodie1972,

Everyone says that Cubase score editor is not so good but I have heard others say if you learn it, it should be enough.
Once you do the score in Cubase,do you think it would it be difficult to export the file as an xml in Sibelius and just tidy it up?

I am wondering if this would be the most efficient to work between daw and notation?

Many Thanks
 

Woodie1972

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@maximuss If you compare it to the major notation programs, then it's indeed inferior, but I think it can do the job, especially when you're not into composing highly graphical contemporary music. I don't think composers who write in this style are interested in a DAW in the first place, but well, you never know.

You need to get your head around a few things to get it to work, mostly because it works different compared to the major notation programs. Sometimes it makes you tear your hair out, smash your head against the wall, throw your computer out of the window, simply because you are so used to certain key commands and ways of entering notes and dynamics, that when you do this in Cubase's score editor, you get the most weird results.
I'm pretty used to it now and it fills my needs up to a certain point, and combining this with the midi editor, will defenitely get you there.

Importing XML from Cubase to Sibelius and how good this will be depends at first on how good your score looks in Cubase, especially regarding quantization and how strict you have been in using the right channels and voicings for your instruments. For solo instruments this is easier of course, because they have only one line (except perhaps solo strings), than for keyboard instruments f.e..

Maybe write a short, simple piece, or enter an existing piece using the score editor of Cubase and export it from Cubase to Sibelius and check the results. Take the time, as even a short frase of eight bars will take some time. It feels a bit like the very first time you started entering notes into Sibelius, although this is by far less difficult. Once you're finished, export it and see what the results are and where you can improve them.
One tip: program the numeric keypad (not the 'normal numbers'!) so, that they match the numbers of Sibelius for note values, otherwise you will be moving your mouse around like crazy to select the right value. This can be done in the preferences. If you do this, Cubase will most likely give an error saying there's already another command under the chosen number, but you can overwrite this. If you want this to reverted later on, you can either change it manually back again, or reset everything to default. But please be aware that all your keycommand changes are reverted when choosing this option, also the ones you probably made in the past, so be careful.

Anyway, good luck with it. I can only say I'm really glad I took the time to learn using the score editor, albeit sometimes a frustrating journey and I still learn every time I use it. I hope the same goes for you and you will see the potential of it, as it's really much better than other people say. But of course this highly depends on what you expect from it and what your specific needs are.
 

ed buller

Senior Member
Hi Muk,

what you have stated above seems to be the undeniable truth about this conundrum that many of us struggle with.
From what everybody is saying, if you don't want to fiddle with Midi for days, just stick to Noteperformer.

many thanks

the thing is.....even in a DAW, with stupendous samples, fiddling with MIDI for days it what it will always take to get a decent orchestral mock up......

best


ed
 
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maximuss

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@maximuss If you compare it to the major notation programs, then it's indeed inferior, but I think it can do the job, especially when you're not into composing highly graphical contemporary music. I don't think composers who write in this style are interested in a DAW in the first place, but well, you never know.

You need to get your head around a few things to get it to work, mostly because it works different compared to the major notation programs. Sometimes it makes you tear your hair out, smash your head against the wall, throw your computer out of the window, simply because you are so used to certain key commands and ways of entering notes and dynamics, that when you do this in Cubase's score editor, you get the most weird results.
I'm pretty used to it now and it fills my needs up to a certain point, and combining this with the midi editor, will defenitely get you there.

Importing XML from Cubase to Sibelius and how good this will be depends at first on how good your score looks in Cubase, especially regarding quantization and how strict you have been in using the right channels and voicings for your instruments. For solo instruments this is easier of course, because they have only one line (except perhaps solo strings), than for keyboard instruments f.e..

Maybe write a short, simple piece, or enter an existing piece using the score editor of Cubase and export it from Cubase to Sibelius and check the results. Take the time, as even a short frase of eight bars will take some time. It feels a bit like the very first time you started entering notes into Sibelius, although this is by far less difficult. Once you're finished, export it and see what the results are and where you can improve them.
One tip: program the numeric keypad (not the 'normal numbers'!) so, that they match the numbers of Sibelius for note values, otherwise you will be moving your mouse around like crazy to select the right value. This can be done in the preferences. If you do this, Cubase will most likely give an error saying there's already another command under the chosen number, but you can overwrite this. If you want this to reverted later on, you can either change it manually back again, or reset everything to default. But please be aware that all your keycommand changes are reverted when choosing this option, also the ones you probably made in the past, so be careful.

Anyway, good luck with it. I can only say I'm really glad I took the time to learn using the score editor, albeit sometimes a frustrating journey and I still learn every time I use it. I hope the same goes for you and you will see the potential of it, as it's really much better than other people say. But of course this highly depends on what you expect from it and what your specific needs are.

Hi Woodie,

great advice and thank you kindly for your input.
I would be using step edit, so the score should be tidy when importing into Sibelius.
I am quite inspired to take this route and I think this could be the best solution to all of this, "notation to DAW" or in this case "Daw to notation" . I write in the classical genre and sometimes sounding quite contemporary but without all of the crazy graphics so, it should suite me just fine.

Now the trick here is to set up a template in Cubase that will give the most efficient workflow.

Firstly, we can start with a well setup collection of expression maps.

How to get that integration and balance that you get from Noteperformer is beyond me, but if someone knows how to set this up in Cubase, then we are getting somewhere. I am ignorant with all of that so I do not know if that is even possible.

With Gratitude
Maximuss
 

Woodie1972

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You can download expression maps from the Steinberg website, available there for most major libraries, which you can import in Cubase and then activate the expression map on the instrument track. you will probably have to adapt the expression map to your own preferences, but that's not such a big deal. Well, unless you have a ton of different articulations, but for a short sketch as a trial this is likely not the case.

In the midi editor you can then select the right expression, which is reflected in the score editor with text. Legato won't draw a slur bytheway, but you can enter a slur manually in the score editor if you need, or add this later in Sibelius.

I hear very good comments on Noteperformer, but what keeps me from using it, is that you can't use your own libraries and I really want to be able to pick my own sounds and tweak them to my own liking.
 
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maximuss

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I understand that also, it is limited in sounds even though it is great.
 

Woodie1972

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I think it is great to globally check your composition, or use it for a demo. But if you need more realistic sounding mock-ups to be used for movies, games or other media, then you really have to go the DAW route and tweak everything yourself
 
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