VSL Synchron Strings I Announced (Nov. Release)

Discussion in 'SAMPLE Talk' started by muziksculp, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. OP
    OP
    muziksculp

    muziksculp Senior Member

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    Dec 26, 2004
    Los Angeles
    Hi,

    It would be really appreciated if we can stick to discussing the library, and not forum members musicianship, we are all great musicians, and have unique talents, this thread is about VSL Synchron Strings 1, so let's stay on topic.

    Thanks,
    Muziksculp
     
    eli0s likes this.
  2. Simon Ravn

    Simon Ravn Senior Member

    Not at all, but it will make it obvious that you dont know what you are talking about when you evaluate sample libraries.
     
  3. novaburst

    novaburst Senior Member

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    Wow you drive a hard bargain dude turn it down a notch down, try not to get to personal.

    Perhaps this is the way forward
     
    Casiquire likes this.
  4. Esther Gagné

    Esther Gagné New Member

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    It's funny. I've been following this thread for ages, reading every page since around november while sipping my morning coffee, giggling at some of the quick-witted answers from some, and often shocked by the complete lack of social skills emanating from others. Which is strange as music is in great part the expression of impressions and feelings turned into sound, I dread to hear the music of individuals whose sole purpose is egotistical self-satisfaction at the expense of respect and civility. Hurting others won't bring you better sounding samples. It is ok if you made a mistake. Just try to sell your library back. There is no need to avenge your pride because you bought something that doesn't suit you.

    You bought that hat, you were so happy you thought everyone would say how cool you look, but after a few days, you noticed you just look dumb with it? Don't put it on. Or bring it back, and tell the hatter you're not satisfied, maybe. But don't just go to the shop whinning, threatening, then slamming your fists on the counter while insulting the clients around laughing at how ridiculous they look, hoping the hatter will comply with your every demand and bring you the perfect new hat for free. If you think that way, you must be immensly disatisfied with almost everything life is made of. The hatter did his best to create a pretty hat, and now he is being scolded for that. The hat is pretty, Maybe you're just not as pretty as you thought you were. Yeah I know, you could have bought two new roompacks with the money, or half the dimension collection you where hesitant to get because somehow, the sound seemed a bit metallic to your precious ears. Samples are expensive because they are hard and painstaking to create. They aren't good enough for your music? Try pencil and paper. Try screenwritting! You're good at creating a scene drived by conflict, and visibly a prolific writer.



    At the bottom of everyhting, I really think people working at developping sample libraries wish to make others happy and help them create beautiful music, while on the other hand, one cannot dismiss the pecuniary dimension of it all either. They all try to sell. Everyone needs to eat. But, be it toward the music of composers brave and generous enough to risk posting excerpts of their work in here only to see themselves ridiculed, or toward the VSL team, such lack of respect is untolerable in my opinion, as empathy and respect are basic notions anyone should learn before pretending to interact as an adult. You won't get the best out of people while whipping them. They'll ditch you on the side of the road on the first occasion with a bump on the forehead. Healthy emulation comes from positive criticism. Do you seriously think the dedicated people from VSL, who spent months planning and adjusting microphones, joking with the musicians, sweating over thousands of samples to combine and hoping for the best are gonna come in front of you here, laugh sadly and watch their feet saying: "Yeah, you're right, we suck." Would you? Haha, no.



    I have bought loads of libraries during the past years, the full VSL Cube, plus the organ, the piano, the saxophones, then Hollywood Strings, Hollywood Brass, Spitfire S.O. and Chamber Strings, Embertone strings, CSS, CSSS, VSS2, QL Spaces, MIR Pro, etc. I am of no Party, I love them all, I hate them all. My neck hurts at the end of the day, I don't sleep well. Jeez, it was so much easier with some scoring paper in front of the piano 20 years ago! Everything sounded right inside my head. All of these are amazing products, but most of the time, you give your score to real musicians, hear it and tell yourself : "Wow! Did I really compose that??" You give the same score to your beloved template and think: "I am shit." and after three weeks of CC editing and tweaking, you get half the quarter of the real guys' result. Of course you want the perfect strings, woodwinds, brass. You cry when you listen to better John Williams mock-ups than yours, it's always featuring the library you don't own yet.

    I don't have the Synchron Strings. Because I am the same as you, human, always wishing for better, I hesitate, I crave, carry ever greater expectations and then yield to temptation and am disappointed more often than not. Then I am broke and have to wait before the next big thing. And in November I could never have afforded these new instruments. But I've listened to every demo I could find and, well, my verdict is that it's a VSL library in every respect. VSL always try to be innovative. And then the others around see that idea and do it differently, sometimes better for "this" or "that". Others wanna be innovative and they sample 500 cellos so that the next trailer music will break new ground, enriched by the glorious swimming pool of 4/4, C minor, I-VI-IV-V triads of 1500 virtual cellos under three fingers! I am fine with that, if that makes one happy, it's fine. It sure is silky.
     
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  5. Esther Gagné

    Esther Gagné New Member

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    But there is one thing: VSL is always consistent. You might not like the design of the hat, but damn the thing will resist to a heavy pour, and remain on your head through a thunder storm. I defend them here because the thread is about their product. Sure, these demos here or there sound more convincing. But did they mock up the whole freaking Rite of Spring?? Or the full extent of Star Wars' main title? Or Gershwin's piano concerto? Nope. There is nothing more honest in my opinion than doing demos using well known masterpieces. It's easy to get around the flaws of a library when you write something new. We've all done that. You know, that thing you so wanted to hear but you had to put tremolos or 5 note arpeggios instead because of the blattant machine gun? VSL creates versatile instruments, which are calibrated. Do you know many companies that offer fingered tremolos? The true range of double basses con sordino? Natural harmonic glissandos? And most of the time the same range of articulations for every instrument of the same family? The creators themselves answer your questions of their forum everyday. I don't see other companies doing that. "Send us the file, we'll open it and see if we can reproduce the bug here". Wow.

    Of course, our vision of what a sample library should be depends on our artistic goals. It differs for everyone. I like timbral inventions and effects, extended intricate writing and contrapuntal works. I don't want to use some prerecorded textures. I want to be free to try an idea and hear it, and VSL libraries are about the only ones that allow me to do that. And if the articulation I'm looking for is not available, I know they are about the only guys who probably thought about it and plan to offer it someday. I don't like trailer music, I don't care about 20 horns in unisson and I love woodwinds.

    My opinion is that the Synchron Strings were created with a different architecture in mind, in order to offer a lot more dynamic layers and round robins than usual. Thus, attacks might have been separated from their remaining lengths in order to achieve a greater number of versions of the same note without making the library immensly heavy, but I might be wrong. Also, they seem to offer a greater number of microphone positions than most and calibrated dynamics. Multiply all these dynamic layers by all the mic positions and you get a gargantuan library. I think this is an answer to competitors who create ambient libraries that are difficult to work with because of inconsistencies. How many times have I lost my mind trying to adjust a template where legatos are 6 dB softer than the rest of the articulations, and tremolos 7 dB louder? To me, the fact VSL envisioned an ambient series of libraries is already proof they are committed to satisfy more recent trends and demands. Of course some other libraries have more convincing legatos, they are also full of dispersed flaws which combined might sound like the true interpretation of a human being (on only 2 velocity layers sometimes). But a real musician doesn't "machine gun" flaws, and these become impossible to hide in a solo. I feel that VSL knows that and tries to allow users to create their own flaws from a pristine canvas, too pristine or surgical for many, as it is a lot of work for sure to create them all from scratch. The brushes are top notch, the canvas is the best linen you can find, but the brush strokes aren't there yet. You have to brush them in yourself. The major problem, in my opinion, is that they might have had too many irons in the fire, trying to emulate so many dynamic layers inside a multimicrophone environnement that it rendered the feat difficult to achieve with the most realistic results. But the endeavour has to be acknowledged.

    There are a lot of tools included in VSL softwares that allow you to stretch and shape the sound of an instrument and it's behavior. I would suggest unsatisfied users to dig into the manuals a bit more because these contain a wealth of information about possibilities most won't exploit by lack of knowledge, motivation, or simply because there are so many combinations of approaches that one's fails to keep them all at the top of his (or her!) mind while working. I am one of them and am still learning. But once you discover how much you can do with these instruments, the gained sensation of freedom and steadiness is uncomparable. It will never be perfect, and Synchron Strings have their flaws, but they are a first and a risk willingly taken. This should be kept in mind, I think before starting to deride the effort. They are The Last Jedi of string libraries, haha! They sure subverted the expectations of many, and are very devisive, but that's what happens when some raise their expectations too high or believe too much in their own erroneous predictions. Still, better new than rehash. They have amazing shorts and a definition of sound I have never heard before. From what I've heard, they are a quality instrument, full of nuance. Unlike some of the people here who seem very happy to loudly repeat the same thing two hundred times, complaining. I would suggest to such persons to let go of their hate and stop such attacks on the hard work of others, composers and sample library creators alike, who have been since then more than likely hurt, both personally and commercially.

    I apologise for my english, it is not my mother tongue, and I return bellow, into the depths of the internet...
     
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  6. shawnsingh

    shawnsingh Senior Member

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    Hi all. Fairly new to VI control, but I did have some opinions to share about Synchron Strings.

    I do actually agree with many of the criticisms of the library: (a) super shorts seem too truncated at the sample start, (b) legato transitions don't really seem to have true legato interval transitions, (c) sfz sounds blatantly like a short note layered on a sustain, and (d) generally I wish there were more articulations.

    HOWEVER.... one of the things I loved in the past about their dry instruments was the ability to sculpt a nuanced performance with velocity xfade and articulation substitutions - I felt it was actually a nice advantage that their samples were so uniform and consistent, so it was possible to control the details of how expressiveness is performed.

    For what it's worth, I do feel that VSL has managed to keep that property in Synchron Strings - the consistency of the samples is enough to allow articulation substitutions and fast crossfades as techniques for squeezing nuance in a performance. I don't know if that's important to people these days, but I like that aspect of the library.

    I think the "sterile" "lifeless" sound of VSL can often be attributed users not riding the velocity xfade dramatically enough and often enough. I find it actually works better to think of velocity xfade as a bow pressure/speed control that you want to vary almost on every note, even moderately fast notes. Similarly, an "unnatural sounding line" can often be attributed to users not sculpting the attack and release of each note in ways that may mimic real players - this sculpting, for me, is a combination of velocity xfade riding and substituting articulations in not-so-obvious ways. Like using Fp on fast notes that should have a rounded emphasis. This is where more articulations could have helped, in my opinion, but oh well.

    For sure, that kind of tweaking and hard work isn't for everyone - but I think it has been the spirit of VSL instruments all along, and it can be put to good use, and Synchron Strings retained this.

    OK, so some examples to demonstrate what I'm proposing above. Here were a few Synchron Strings legato demos I made several months ago:

    This one was various experiments with close mic mixing with other mics:


    This video was earlier, trying to demonstrating that polyphonc legato with MIDI notes overlapping can help mask the odd legato transitions. That legato technique works better in my opinion than legato blur. I know a lot of people aren't satisfied with the legato (I am one of them) but for 95% of legato situations in practice, I think this technique is good enough to allow a listener to focus on the rest of the music, and not necessarily notice poor transitions. Also, please note, that the middle sections of this demo are intended to show how some techniques alone are NOT adequate. The real technique I think works is shown at the beginning and at the end.


    One other thought I had, but I have not experimented with this as much and I don't know for certain: I suspect many people (me definitely included) jumped straight to the strong vibrato style articulations, without considering the normal vibrato at all. Maybe if we try to scale back all dynamics by one level, and if we use the normal vibrato more often, saving the strong vibrato for those occasional expressive moments (and crossfading between normal and strong for that), maybe that could reveal another layer of expressiveness that these samples have. I wonder if a lot of us have been trying to mix the mic positions based on how the strong vib sounds, which might be preventing us from hearing how good the normal vibrato might be. I hope I can experiment with this eventually, but sadly I already know I won't have any time to try for several more months. I'd be interested to hear experiments if other people try these ideas.

    Cheers!
     
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  7. Simon Ravn

    Simon Ravn Senior Member

    Just for the record, again, my comment was not aimed at the composition! But your post was a response to the criticism of SyS. So yes, I don't think your piece proves anything good about SyS and its legato/sound. Sorry if it came across as a criticism of your compositional abilities, that was not my intention.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  8. Sovereign

    Sovereign Senior Member

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    I believe the consistency of the samples is in fact its Achilles heel. The lifeless sound is not cured by riding the xfade more often, I tried. The timbre - determined by how the players performed - is baked in, and you can't change that no matter how much you pull on that mod wheel (or whatever controller one uses). That is why it sounds flat. If I pick any recent library - be it CSS, Soaring Strings, or Jaeger - even when not using xfade control to shape the dynamics, the strings already sound 'alive' when playing the most simplest of lines. No amount of cc tweaking will fix this for Synchron, they'd need new recordings.
     
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  9. romantic

    romantic Senior Member

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    You think that super shorts are stacked? I am pretty shure with sfz but not others. I could not find any official statement here which articulations are "true" (recorded) and which are "scripted". Any other opinions there?
     
  10. Jimmy Hellfire

    Jimmy Hellfire Senior Member

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    Sorry, I didn't mean that the super short is a stacked articulation - just a "fake" one in the sense that it's not an actual, recorded performance. I'm pretty sure that these are actually derived from the regular "shorts" recordings, but just truncated to make them shorter. Unfortunately it sounds pretty weird and not very musical.
     
  11. Tfis

    Tfis Senior Member

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    Legato and longs share (parts of?) the same samples.

    Another reproducible cubase crash:

    Sy-player

    Make a mix layer of three fast legato articulations (i used violin 1)
    Try to set up the 2nd and 3rd cell to play after the 1st (delay parameter edit page).
    Lower sustain to 0 and try to get a little of a release by raising decay/hold.

    I wanted to build a articulation for fast runs.

    Cubase crashes after trying to edit the second or third cell.
    Always.

    Those technical issues don't make it easier to get the most out of this library.
     
  12. Eptesicus

    Eptesicus Senior Member

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    I disagree with everything you have wrote.

    Why should we be happy about being sold a demonstrably duff (and falsely advertised) product?

    Why should we put up with vsl sycophants telling us we don't have the skill to make this library sound good?

    A lot of us (including myself) no doubt don't have the money to waste on a complete dud of a library so perhaps it might be better if you step off your high horse and take your long drivel about hats and how we should all be nice to a company that have taken our money and not delivered their end of the bargain elsewhere.
     
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  13. Piotrek K.

    Piotrek K. Senior Member

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    I actually got rid of standard vibrato patches (if I only could delete those). They are the weakest, the deadest link there in my opinion. Crossfade from non vibrato to lyrical is much nicer imo, because somewhere near value 80-90 it sounds like standard vibrato patch, but slightly more alive. And at max there is hearable movement in sound (decca tree classic preset) - still far from molto vibrato though. Plus changing wave start offset to something like 0.5 makes vibrato to kick in a bit faster (also on legato and the dreaded bump is kinda gone).
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
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  14. Zoot_Rollo

    Zoot_Rollo Throbbing Member

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    i think N just released a Hat library.
     
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  15. Esther Gagné

    Esther Gagné New Member

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    Oh, I know how you feel, and you have the right to be disappointed. I know how long you've all waited for the release and I can put myself in your shoes. I was just saying there is no need to be rude to each other because I don't think anything good will come out of it.

    I don't think I am a sycophant. I like VSL but my other libraries too. Actually, I use CSS + Spitfire Chamber Strings combined as two divisi sections and it works very well. : )

    But I am still very curious of the Synchron Strings because despite all that's been said, I still like the sound, so I keep coming back here. Sorry if you felt my remarks were out of place. Good night.
     
    Eloy likes this.
  16. Tfis

    Tfis Senior Member

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    Could someone please build a patch like shown on the picture and play some fast notes on a windows system?
    In my case windows crashes cubase immediately.
    Thanks. neu-3.jpg
     
  17. Vischebaste

    Vischebaste Senior Member

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    Hi all,

    Just installing the Synchron samples and a warning pops up saying they need to be installed to an SSD? Is this really true? I don't remember that warning when installing the previous samples for the Vienna Instrument player?
     
  18. Sovereign

    Sovereign Senior Member

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    You do not want to run it off a regular HD.
     
  19. Vischebaste

    Vischebaste Senior Member

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    Thanks. Has anyone tried doing this? If so, how bad is it?

    When originally purchasing (during the first discount period), I remember a recommendation to use an SSD, now it seems to be a requirement. Is that correct, or am I misremembering?
     
  20. novaburst

    novaburst Senior Member

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    SyS is VSLs largest library by far, it can work on Hdd but you will struggle, especially in loading times, and if you have recorded many tracks with SyS starting up will be a nightmare using standard Hdd, even with SSD it takes its toll,

    SSD it the way to go
     

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