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VI playback sounds different in LPX vs CB

Living Fossil

Senior Member
No im just saying that to me it sounds different...maybe not to you and that fine...

Each time you listen to the same audio file, your brain focusses on slightly different aspects.
So, the identical file sounds different inside of your brain.
But that difference is a category of perception.
The file still is identical.

When two files null, it means it is exactly the same.

Why is it so hard to get this???



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dzilizzi

Senior Member
I've always wondered if AU vs VST makes a difference. Since the 1's and 0's aren't actually going to be the same. I don't have good enough ears to hear it, but maybe someone else does?

But when you are talking Kontakt and midi, there also may be differences in how each DAW handles modifications, etc... even from the same midi file, depending on the settings. To do a real comparison, you would have to make sure the settings are similar, unlike a sine wave audio file.

Edit: of course, not if they null.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
It amazes me that this topic keeps coming up on internet forums.

Null means Null. Identical. There is nothing different. If it actually does null, then you aren't hearing anything different. Your mind might think so for psychological reasons.

Now that being said... aside from a very controlled experiments with test tones, I find it highly unlikely that anyone was able to mix an actual music project in two different DAW's and get them the actually null. If they say they did, I don't think they know the meaning of the word "null". There are too many factors for why it would be utterly improbable that anyone would ever mix down a project with all the various plugins and faders...in exactly the same way in the two daw's leading to a null result.

So yes..its possible that you mixed a project in one DAW and liked the sound better then the other, but based on scientific evidence that has been tested countless times in the past few decades, that is not due to some fundamental DAW voodoo...its simply the way you mixed the project in each DAW.

I have never seen anyone actually provide sound files of two mixed projects from two different daw's that actually do null. I find it highly unlikely that anyone has ever been able to do that. But also many simple tests with test tones between two DAW's have been done, with perfectly nulled out results....meaning...exactly the same result. This is scientific. If you deny this science, then I can't help you, I'd suggest getting a voodoo doll to help you with your mixes then.

But it also has to be recognized that people work differently in different environments and one daw may very well lead someone to create better sounding mixes then another daw, simply because of the way they are using it...but that is entirely subjective, any DAW can produce absolute magic in the right hands.

All of that being said...admiral bumble bee also has measured scientifically the differences between DAW's while performing automated fades. So if your project has a lot of automated fades happening....(not midi fades)...then definitely all DAW's are not created equal. Unfortunately, in that test, Cubase didn't fare any better then LogicPro in terms of intermodulation noise. But then...maybe you like the Cubase flavor of intermodulation noise.
 

dzilizzi

Senior Member
It amazes me that this topic keeps coming up on internet forums.

Null means Null. Identical. There is nothing different. If it actually does null, then you aren't hearing anything different. Your mind might think so for psychological reasons.

Now that being said... aside from a very controlled experiments with test tones, I find it highly unlikely that anyone was able to mix an actual music project in two different DAW's and get them the actually null. If they say they did, I don't think they know the meaning of the word "null". There are too many factors for why it would be utterly improbable that anyone would ever mix down a project with all the various plugins and faders...in exactly the same way in the two daw's leading to a null result.

So yes..its possible that you mixed a project in one DAW and liked the sound better then the other, but based on scientific evidence that has been tested countless times in the past few decades, that is not due to some fundamental DAW voodoo...its simply the way you mixed the project in each DAW.

I have never seen anyone actually provide sound files of two mixed projects from two different daw's that actually do null. I find it highly unlikely that anyone has ever been able to do that. But also many simple tests with test tones between two DAW's have been done, with perfectly nulled out results....meaning...exactly the same result. This is scientific. If you deny this science, then I can't help you, I'd suggest getting a voodoo doll to help you with your mixes then.

But it also has to be recognized that people work differently in different environments and one daw may very well lead someone to create better sounding mixes then another daw, simply because of the way they are using it...but that is entirely subjective, any DAW can produce absolute magic in the right hands.

All of that being said...admiral bumble bee also has measured scientifically the differences between DAW's while performing automated fades. So if your project has a lot of automated fades happening....(not midi fades)...then definitely all DAW's are not created equal. Unfortunately, in that test, Cubase didn't fare any better then LogicPro in terms of intermodulation noise. But then...maybe you like the Cubase flavor of intermodulation noise.
Hey! I want one of those voodoo dolls that make my mixes sound better. Where do I get one???

Okay, I'm not a computer programmer. Is there a difference between the programming in a VST vs an AU program? I know there are differences between Core Audio and ASIO, but then, the results won't null. Maybe I'm just confusing myself. And does it really matter? I think I may have been locked up in my house too long...
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
sure there is different code in AU and VST...but usually if you have a certain plugin by a certain developer...they are using the same underlying DSP code in both plugins to process the actual digital audio. It would be very very very unlikely that a VST version would sound different then the AU of the same plugin from the same developer unless they intentionally used different DSP code in the two different plugins...which would be very strange if they did.

Your audio doesn't flow through all the code in a plugin....the digital audio flows through certain DSP calculations... All the other overhead related to the GUI or Au/VST mechanisms are irrelevant to the sound.
 

dzilizzi

Senior Member
sure there is different code in AU and VST...but usually if you have a certain plugin by a certain developer...they are using the same underlying DSP code in both plugins to process the actual digital audio. It would be very very very unlikely that a VST version would sound different then the AU of the same plugin from the same developer unless they intentionally used different DSP code in the two different plugins...which would be very strange if they did.

Your audio doesn't flow through all the code in a plugin....the digital audio flows through certain DSP calculations... All the other overhead related to the GUI or Au/VST mechanisms are irrelevant to the sound.
Thanks. That makes sense to me, but no one properly explained it.

Now about the voodoo doll.....
 

kitekrazy

Senior Member
This debate will never be conclusive. People say this when they open up different DAWs. The solution is make crappy music and no one will care.
 
Null is null. Same 1's and 0's.
The problem here usually is that people don't realize how much moving your head just half an inch with any normal kind of acoustic space, does to the sound (orders of magnitude bigger than any possible difference here, even if it didn't null, due to comb filtering and numerous other acoustical effects). So yes, sometimes people are hearing a difference, but...it's just that they can't keep their head still. Short of clamping it place...

We even assess sound using micro-movements you would swear blind you don't know about - because you don't. Your brain is localizing sound all the time through the 600 microsecond difference (ish) between left ear and right ear. If 600 microseconds and tiny notches in the 5k to 8k range effect whether you hear a sound as above or behind you, imagine how much the ILD and ITD changes of moving just teeny tiny bit does.

Then the next problem is that human hearing isn't linear, and isn't static, and is enormously influenced by both the thing you heard immediately prior, environment. A/B listenings are approximate - at best. The brain tunes into sound very selectively. There is no such thing as objective hearing. The very act of playing A influences B even if you could clamp your head in place. Just moving your jaw a little - changes the perceived sound. So it's often not that people are actively being obtuse. They may actually be hearing a difference. Double blind and boom, all of it goes away, but people still swear they hear the difference and sometimes, they do hear "a" difference. It's hearing that is at fault, and physics and acoustics. Not the DAW.

It's just absolutely, scientifically, mathematically there is no difference between the DAWs ability to do simple arithmetic, which is far from a complicated thing to do and not done any differently in any way that would be audible by humans, or any other species. Or any measurement microphone, system or what have you.
 
Also any of these discussions when they come up, if they are intrinsically about the simple mathematics of summing digital audio is like saying that one DAW does 1+1 = 2 and the other does 1+1 = 2.000000000023. Even if it were true, the idea that that 0.00000000023 would be a) audible b) favorable to a particular part of the audio spectrum is insane, not to mention that what is being claimed is...an error that would have catastrophic effects on other simple computing tasks. There are quantum domains in which such errors play a huge part, there are issues with transmission in digital audio that (if catastrophically bad) can impact audio - but again, not in any particular part of the frequency spectrum that would be "beneficial", but...these are basically home PCs with really, really simple software. It's beyond bizarre but confirmation bias, and simple physiology push people to strange conclusions.
 

IFM

Senior Member
So I thought I used to notice a difference but then realized Cubase has a hotter output than LPX. Your brain will always think the louder one is better.
 
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