A.G
Senior Member
I'm not sure if Gary wants to hear or not, but I'm sure that many other are interested about deep Logic researches I post hereMy belief as well, A.G, but I dind't say to because Gary was clear he didn't want to hear it
VEPro7 and the Logic Template with more instances
- Thread starter garyhiebner
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Dewdman42
Senior Member
I do not see any problem with the way AU3 multi-timbral instruments work, In the environment as to how the internals work and whether it is using more CPU because there are internal environment strips...that sounds like voodoo logic to me. If you want to back up that claim with some actual facts....I am interested to hear it, but Apple, not VSL, chose to integrate AU3 the way they have done.... At present you do not have to enter the environment at all to use AU3 multi-timbral, including with VEP7 AU3. LogicPro handles the creation of all internal objects in the environment automatically, just like it does for 16 channel multi-timbral instruments that many people are already perfectly accustomed to working with.
The fact that all the multi-timbral tracks share the same MUTE and SOLO button is logical also, though confuses many people. There is only one instrument channel and all those tracks are sharing it, so the MUTE and SOLO buttons effect the same instrument channel. THis is not so difficult.
There are pros and cons to working with multi-timbral instruments just as there are pros and cons to using one track per instrument. I am not here to say one way is better then the other, though I personally prefer using multi-timbral VEP to a few instances. However, its misinformation to say that there is some kind of problem with AU3 multi-timbral instruments. There is not, they work perfectly fine and exactly as designed in LogicPro.
The fact that all the multi-timbral tracks share the same MUTE and SOLO button is logical also, though confuses many people. There is only one instrument channel and all those tracks are sharing it, so the MUTE and SOLO buttons effect the same instrument channel. THis is not so difficult.
There are pros and cons to working with multi-timbral instruments just as there are pros and cons to using one track per instrument. I am not here to say one way is better then the other, though I personally prefer using multi-timbral VEP to a few instances. However, its misinformation to say that there is some kind of problem with AU3 multi-timbral instruments. There is not, they work perfectly fine and exactly as designed in LogicPro.
A.G
Senior Member
Dewdman42, you do not have any idea about the "Deep Environment" features, troubles, bugs etc - you experiment on the fly - right?
As I mentioned me and Dave Eager spent more than 4 years into that. Apple do not have an idea how many problems there are as well (many of the basic features was developed and never finished by the old German Emagic team). Sometimes when I have time I report some urgent problems.
PS. Logic 10.4.5 & 10.4.6 Environment is broken a lot (it crashes Logic). I'm doing my best to define all troubles and document them at the moment...
As I mentioned me and Dave Eager spent more than 4 years into that. Apple do not have an idea how many problems there are as well (many of the basic features was developed and never finished by the old German Emagic team). Sometimes when I have time I report some urgent problems.
PS. Logic 10.4.5 & 10.4.6 Environment is broken a lot (it crashes Logic). I'm doing my best to define all troubles and document them at the moment...
A.G
Senior Member
Heh, your fantasy goes beyond the truth. There are quite a lot Logic users (not AG users) who contacted me to ask why their Logic templates (which contain some custom Environments) crash after the LPX 10.4.4 releases.
You do not have any idea about the advanced Environment, so please only read my posts and make your own experiments until Apple fix the issues.
I know that you are a great Logic enthusiast but it does not help you in this case
Ashermusic
Senior Member
I am going to say one thing and then leave it.
Call me crazy, Gary, but if my career was as robust as yours is, I would not build my Logic-VE Pro workflow around any methodology that both Apple and VSL did not say, "this now works really well and we can recommend it" and to the best of my knowledge, they have not. That kind of experimenting is fine for people who have time to spare and who are not working on tight deadlines, but that is not you, Gary.
Call me crazy, Gary, but if my career was as robust as yours is, I would not build my Logic-VE Pro workflow around any methodology that both Apple and VSL did not say, "this now works really well and we can recommend it" and to the best of my knowledge, they have not. That kind of experimenting is fine for people who have time to spare and who are not working on tight deadlines, but that is not you, Gary.
A.G
Senior Member
The Mutli Timbral Channel Strips you create and map to different VEP Ports are Environment objects!
Logic Channel Strip (CS) architecture is very old and probably designed for 256 Instruments or 1000 CS in the latest LPX versions - this is not enough for the new AU3 tech.
For example, when I tried to build 1200 Instruments some time ago I found that Logic started to suffer between 450 and 500 Instrument CS, so I had to re-design my work and find a solution. The reason was Environment layer memory limit (the CS takes most memory in comparison with the other Enviro objects).
At the moment I have an AU3 alternative which is different than the VSL example and yours.
I know that you are satisfied with AU3 as you say, but 128 MIDI Channels per VEP Instance is nothing for AU3.
I do believe that Apple will re-design LPX soon and make it well for AU3 usage soon.
Dewdman42
Senior Member
First of all, every logic project you create is using environment objects underneath. There is nothing “custom” about that. Logicpro manages it all automatically. You are implying that logic cannot handle 1000 instrument tracks? I think it can.
With AU3 you only need 10 instrument channels to support 1270 multi timbral instrument tracks and it works perfectly fine.
AU3 is a big improvement from both Apple and VSL! Can it be better? Sure, I’d like to see it handle 768 tracks per vep instance rather then only 127. But 127 is still a huge improvement.
Ivan perhaps your system provides more then 127 tracks per vep instance and that could be a valid selling point but it is misinformation to say that AU3 is broken. It’s not broken and works very well and there is elegance in using the solution provided by Apple rather then creating extra layers of complexity to try to achieve more tracks per vep instance
With AU3 you only need 10 instrument channels to support 1270 multi timbral instrument tracks and it works perfectly fine.
AU3 is a big improvement from both Apple and VSL! Can it be better? Sure, I’d like to see it handle 768 tracks per vep instance rather then only 127. But 127 is still a huge improvement.
Ivan perhaps your system provides more then 127 tracks per vep instance and that could be a valid selling point but it is misinformation to say that AU3 is broken. It’s not broken and works very well and there is elegance in using the solution provided by Apple rather then creating extra layers of complexity to try to achieve more tracks per vep instance
A.G
Senior Member
Yes, the upcoming "AG VEP Multi Instance" will offer 8192 MIDI Channels per VEP Instance with AU3 8 Ports which is much more than 127 tracks. I could add much more but I guess 8192 tracks is quite enough.
Please read my previous comments carefully - I said that the Environment in LPX 10.4.5/6 is broken not AU3. What I tried to explain to you about AU3 is that you need a lot of Environment Channel Strip objects (according to your AU3 tutorial) which takes serious Environment layer memory resources and Logic may start to suffer after 450 - 500 CS (I have a method to prevent that...)
I guess VSL limited AU3 to 8 Ports cause of that reason. I have not tried your AU3 template - how many Multi Timbral Channel Strips did you build in this AU3 Logic template by the way?
Dewdman42
Senior Member
if someone wants to use more than 127 tracks per VEP instance then it sounds like your product would be worth looking into. I personally do not have a need for that,
But back to your comments about what Apple and VSL have provided with AU3. I believe there is a limit to 127 midi channels per AU3 instrument in LogicPro more because internally that is the limit of an 8 bit byte and there is some very old code in the environment and other places that must be limited by that. Back in the early days of midi there was a lot of old-school optimizations that people used to do in order to reduce data bandwidth as much as possible, limiting things to 8bit bytes whenever possible, etc. That is why midi itself is often limited to 127 values so much also, that's what you can do with an 8bit byte. With modern computers and modern software there is no need for that limitation, but many parts of the internals of LogicPro must be very very old code dating back to the 1980's, especially in the environment which is the heart of LogicPro. Midi is routed through that engine. For whatever the reason they must have been limited to 127 values without a more heavy redesign of LogicPro internals. that is just my theory, we don't really know since none of us work for Apple on the LogicPro team. Maybe eventually they will expand the internals to handle more than 127 midi channels, but for now that is what it is.
I do not think that there is such a memory resource problem like you are saying above. Maybe in 1995 when you did whatever tests you did, but I do not see that now. Apple easily expanded LogicPro from 256 instruments to 1000 instruments. At 127 tracks per instrument that is a theoretical limit of 127,000 tracks...without using any special hacks. I do not think LogicPro is so limited like you are trying to make it sound.
But it is true that if you want to use more than 127 tracks per VEP instance, then some other solution that adds extra layers of complexity could be considered if you really must, I personally would rather stick with 127 in order to use Apple's factory behavior, which I find quite fine, but I don't need thousands of tracks. A few VEP instances and a few hundred tracks feeding them is quite fine and AU3 handles that task very well all by itself.
Also I want to clarify, and you may not understand this I'm not sure, but the tutorial I made did not involve any manual editing in the environment. There are no extra environment objects other then what are there by selecting New Track from the pull down menus and letting Logic automatically create them for you inside the environment automatically. There is no "custom" environment stuff..its all just the normal standard architecture of LogicPro. LogicPro, by design, uses an environment object under the covers to represent every track. That is how Au3 VEP is used. I only made the template as a convenience, but anyone can start from scratch and create a 1270 track(or more) template in about 20 minutes without every opening the environment. Its just the standard way that LogicPro works. There is no problem there. It works fine.
However, if someone wants 8000 tracks feeding a single VEP instance, I would definitely encourage them to consider your product. Good luck with it.
But back to your comments about what Apple and VSL have provided with AU3. I believe there is a limit to 127 midi channels per AU3 instrument in LogicPro more because internally that is the limit of an 8 bit byte and there is some very old code in the environment and other places that must be limited by that. Back in the early days of midi there was a lot of old-school optimizations that people used to do in order to reduce data bandwidth as much as possible, limiting things to 8bit bytes whenever possible, etc. That is why midi itself is often limited to 127 values so much also, that's what you can do with an 8bit byte. With modern computers and modern software there is no need for that limitation, but many parts of the internals of LogicPro must be very very old code dating back to the 1980's, especially in the environment which is the heart of LogicPro. Midi is routed through that engine. For whatever the reason they must have been limited to 127 values without a more heavy redesign of LogicPro internals. that is just my theory, we don't really know since none of us work for Apple on the LogicPro team. Maybe eventually they will expand the internals to handle more than 127 midi channels, but for now that is what it is.
I do not think that there is such a memory resource problem like you are saying above. Maybe in 1995 when you did whatever tests you did, but I do not see that now. Apple easily expanded LogicPro from 256 instruments to 1000 instruments. At 127 tracks per instrument that is a theoretical limit of 127,000 tracks...without using any special hacks. I do not think LogicPro is so limited like you are trying to make it sound.
But it is true that if you want to use more than 127 tracks per VEP instance, then some other solution that adds extra layers of complexity could be considered if you really must, I personally would rather stick with 127 in order to use Apple's factory behavior, which I find quite fine, but I don't need thousands of tracks. A few VEP instances and a few hundred tracks feeding them is quite fine and AU3 handles that task very well all by itself.
Also I want to clarify, and you may not understand this I'm not sure, but the tutorial I made did not involve any manual editing in the environment. There are no extra environment objects other then what are there by selecting New Track from the pull down menus and letting Logic automatically create them for you inside the environment automatically. There is no "custom" environment stuff..its all just the normal standard architecture of LogicPro. LogicPro, by design, uses an environment object under the covers to represent every track. That is how Au3 VEP is used. I only made the template as a convenience, but anyone can start from scratch and create a 1270 track(or more) template in about 20 minutes without every opening the environment. Its just the standard way that LogicPro works. There is no problem there. It works fine.
However, if someone wants 8000 tracks feeding a single VEP instance, I would definitely encourage them to consider your product. Good luck with it.
Ashermusic
Senior Member
So I thought about giving this AU 3 business a spin, but I rethink I have come across a ddealbreakar, Dewdman, I use Articulation IDs, because as we all know, key switches need to see a note for the correct articulation to sound.
But in the Articulation Sets, you only have 16 MIDI channels, no port choices. I assume AG has a solution for that with his software but otherwise, that's a no go, correct?
But in the Articulation Sets, you only have 16 MIDI channels, no port choices. I assume AG has a solution for that with his software but otherwise, that's a no go, correct?
Ashermusic
Senior Member
I admit I am confused. Sorry.
So I just created a "test" VE Pro instance with Hollywood Brass, 4 ports, some with 16 channels, others with fewer, none with more than 16.
So now in Logic, I instantiate a VE Pro AU 3 beta instance and leave it set to to All, because I don't want to have a separate track for each articulation. Lets. say i.e. Port 2 has 8 solo trombone patches (MC1-8) and then 6 solo Tuba (MC 9-14). I only want two tracks, one for the trombone, one for the tuba.
Can I do it and have Articulation IDs that will work?
So I just created a "test" VE Pro instance with Hollywood Brass, 4 ports, some with 16 channels, others with fewer, none with more than 16.
So now in Logic, I instantiate a VE Pro AU 3 beta instance and leave it set to to All, because I don't want to have a separate track for each articulation. Lets. say i.e. Port 2 has 8 solo trombone patches (MC1-8) and then 6 solo Tuba (MC 9-14). I only want two tracks, one for the trombone, one for the tuba.
Can I do it and have Articulation IDs that will work?
Dewdman42
Senior Member
So your source tracks should not be set to ALL, they should be set to Port 1, channel 1 and port 2, channel 1, respectively.. something like that.
when you create the VEP AU3 track to get started, its easier if you click the multi-timbral checkbox and select two parts in this case. That will make sure the actual tracks do NOT have the midi channel set to ALL. But you'll need to adjust the ports and channels as you desire.
Then you put an articulation set on each of those source tracks...and while hte articulation set only allows you to specify a channel each each articulation ID, it will funnel all its activity through whichever port you have that track assigned to.
when you create the VEP AU3 track to get started, its easier if you click the multi-timbral checkbox and select two parts in this case. That will make sure the actual tracks do NOT have the midi channel set to ALL. But you'll need to adjust the ports and channels as you desire.
Then you put an articulation set on each of those source tracks...and while hte articulation set only allows you to specify a channel each each articulation ID, it will funnel all its activity through whichever port you have that track assigned to.
Ashermusic
Senior Member
OK, I am not sure I need this, but what the hell, I am underemployed at this point and will give it a spin. Thanks.
Dewdman42
Senior Member
One further point.. typically you set the "track" midi channel to ALL when not using multi-timbral instruments. That just tells LPX to use what midi channel that is encoded in the event list for each note. When the track attribute is set to a specific midi channel, then it overrides whatever you try to do in the event list (I think), and channelizes all the notes to that channel...
In the case of using PLAY or whatever and you need each articulation on a different channel, and if you're using articulation Sets...the articulation Set changes the midi channel of each note AFTER the track's channel property has channelized it. So if you have that source track set to channel one, and if you have an articulation set that is channelizing based on articulation ID, then the notes will be channelized like you want.. The track's midi channel property is only effecting that source track, not what comes out of the articulation Set after doing whatever it does. And furthermore, Scripter can be used even later then that to re-channelize notes.
So the track midi channel property is really more about the "source" channel and will not negatively impact re-channelizing activity from articulation Set or from scripter. In most cases you need that set to a channel in order to engage multi-timbral behavior.
Meanwhile the track's PORT property works kind of the same way, except that as of now, the articulationSet is unable to re-port anything based on articulationID, but you can do it in scripter if you desire.
In the case of using PLAY or whatever and you need each articulation on a different channel, and if you're using articulation Sets...the articulation Set changes the midi channel of each note AFTER the track's channel property has channelized it. So if you have that source track set to channel one, and if you have an articulation set that is channelizing based on articulation ID, then the notes will be channelized like you want.. The track's midi channel property is only effecting that source track, not what comes out of the articulation Set after doing whatever it does. And furthermore, Scripter can be used even later then that to re-channelize notes.
So the track midi channel property is really more about the "source" channel and will not negatively impact re-channelizing activity from articulation Set or from scripter. In most cases you need that set to a channel in order to engage multi-timbral behavior.
Meanwhile the track's PORT property works kind of the same way, except that as of now, the articulationSet is unable to re-port anything based on articulationID, but you can do it in scripter if you desire.
Ashermusic
Senior Member
OK, I have already run into a problem. Articulation ID Sets apply to the whole Channel Strip, not to specific MIDI channels, so if MID Ch 1-8 are French horn, while 9 through 16 are trumpet, I can't differentiate the Articulation ID sets.
