Talk me out of an iMac

Dewdman42

Senior Member
They are worth every penny of $2k. I don’t think you can get a loaded up cheese grater for $1000 yet. Those are exaggerated claims. It’s still a viable machine. You can get older ones for $1000 that don’t have max cpu and ram, which I would not Reccomend.

The point of a loaded up cheese grater is that it’s still viable, will run everything we do here in this forum, it’s more then enough power unless you have i9 envy. And it comes in an expandable tower form factor, unlike everything else from Apple. It IS the mid tier solution from Apple until they release something else.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
This is currently my favorite source for refurbished with warranty cheesgraters: http://ipowerresale.com/product/2010-mac-pro-2-66ghz-12-core-westmere/?

If you upgrade cpu, ram, video and ssd, it will be close to $2k out the door. very reliable source though. they can also sell you cpu and ram upgrades.

In eBay there are a number of Sellers that make a living by refurbishing cheesgraters and upgrading their cpu to the max, etc. But I have had very good experience with ipowerresale, plus they warranty it.
 

Damarus

Active Member
They are worth every penny of $2k. I don’t think you can get a loaded up cheese grater for $1000 yet. Those are exaggerated claims. It’s still a viable machine. You can get older ones for $1000 that don’t have max cpu and ram, which I would not Reccomend.

The point of a loaded up cheese grater is that it’s still viable, will run everything we do here in this forum, it’s more then enough power unless you have i9 envy. And it comes in an expandable tower form factor, unlike everything else from Apple. It IS the mid tier solution from Apple until they release something else.
That was not my point. My point was, stop buying shit thats almost 8+ years old because its viable NOW.

Again if everyone reading this is not concerned about performance-per-dollar then these discussions are irrelevant.

I mean seriously guys - this is the multi-threaded score for a mini. The iMac is way higher. not to mention Thunderbolt 3 everything

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Dewdman42

Senior Member
Matter of opinion mate. My opinion is that iMacs and minis are foolish to buy and the 5,1 is right now still in the sweet spot until Apple releases something better
 

Damarus

Active Member
Well, the facts are right there - they have released something better. What does the 5,1 have above any recent release?
 

Pier Bover

Active Member
An absolutely ridiculous statement. Logic has seen its kind of improvement over the years. You have to do is compare the release notes in the incremental updates to those of Ableton Live to know that there’s no truth to the statement.
In the time since Logic Pro X was released, Ableton has released 2 major versions with a ton of new features. Max4Live integration and devices, new synths, new plugins, completely new rewritten UI engine, libraries, etc. And let's not forget about their expansion into hardware with 2 versions of Push, or releasing a crossplatform SDK/protocol (Link) for syncing musical apps.

Or look at Bitwig, a super small company that in just the last 5 years has released 3 major versions of its crossplatform DAW. The last one includes a complete modular environment.

I stopped using Cubase before switching to Logic Pro 7 ages ago, but from what I've seen on forums and youtube videos it is also going full steam ahead.

So while these companies are constantly innovating their products and introducing new revolutionary features Logic Pro is still shipping with ancient plugins (eg: Ultrabeat) which haven't been updated in 15 years. Or Space designer which has been untouched since its introduction in Logic Pro 8 in 2007 or so I believe?

Apple, with its considerable resources, would not ship macOS, iOS, FinalCut, or any of its more popular products with 15 years old stuff in it because it cares about those products.
 

JohnG

Senior Member
5 years ago maybe... but now I have the fear... that the 5,1 is now going to hit a Catalina shaped wall. From here on in there's going to more and more software I wouldn't be able to run. Every update, every patch is going to be another compound risk.
I share this concern ^^. I'm running a 5,1 that was refurbished with a new 12 core some years ago. It's great today but not sure if Catalina is possible or not.
 

Damarus

Active Member
better mid tier solution. And no they haven’t.
Okay I get it, the 5,1 Mac Pro was the peak of innovation for Apple. Very modular and still keeps up to this day.

CPU, RAM, I/O and Storage is really what concerns us Modern day Composers.

CPU - 5,1 is far behind most anything recent. Still powerful enough to get the job done for now, but less head room than it used to have.

RAM - Much slower Ram, but maximum supported is 128GB. Huge plus as most Macs can't get to this for the price point if you really need that much on a budget.

I/O - Dogshit compared to today. Not that fastest or most compatible, but you can make it work.

Storage - Old interface protocols, which barley keeps up with even low tier stuff. But, more modular than anything has released with lots of room for more drives.

So yes, great computer right now. It just doesn't have much head room left in 2020. I would not say it would make another 5 years as a serious workhorse machine.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
I share this concern ^^. I'm running a 5,1 that was refurbished with a new 12 core some years ago. It's great today but not sure if Catalina is possible or not.
Its possible yes, but I don't recommend it for now:

All you want to know about that is here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/what-you-need-to-do-to-make-catalina-work-with-macpro5-1.2183978/

I'm confident that people will figure out eventually how to completely run Catalina on a 5,1 mac, but I have a feeling that after Catalina it will be more difficult because of bigger changes coming in OSX.

Anyone who feels they absolutely must be using the latest version of OSX at all times, should probably buy an iMac.

I don't plan on leaving Mojave with my 5,1. Mojave is working very well for me. I suspect that in about 2-3 years I won't be able to update LogicPro without moving to Catalina...at which time maybe I'll see how that is working on 5,1's, then I can stretch out another year or two on Catalina. That puts me nearly 5 years out from now, then I can finally get a new computer. I'm not worried about it.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
Okay I get it, the 5,1 Mac Pro was the peak of innovation for Apple. Very modular and still keeps up to this day.

CPU, RAM, I/O and Storage is really what concerns us Modern day Composers.
That is why the 5,1 is still my preferrence over even the faster cpu's in current minis and iMacs. And it is a very important factor for what we do.

CPU - 5,1 is far behind most anything recent. Still powerful enough to get the job done for now, but less head room than it used to have.
Sure it is, but its still enough. How much do you need? I'm not running out of cpu on mine. Honestly, I am using Diva and everything else, works fine. Mix many VSL tracks, works fine. Never have to freeze or bounce. Works fine. Ok, if I get in a benchmarking contest with someone that has an i9 I will lose, but so what? What I have is working fine. The ONLY thing is that AVX is becoming more popular. So right now I can't run MassiveX or ModoDrums, but I have way too damn many other very fine plugins that all work perfectly fine on this hardware. Why spend more money?


RAM - Much slower Ram, but maximum supported is 128GB. Huge plus as most Macs can't get to this for the price point if you really need that much on a budget.
Its definitely slower ram then newer models for sure, but again, aside from benchmark pissing contests, who cares? Its also more affordable ram! And yes I like having 128gb of perfectly fast enough ram.


I/O - Dogshit compared to today. Not that fastest or most compatible, but you can make it work.
Well again, I don't care. I have Sata3, which is fast enough. I can get USB3, but I don't need it. Nothing I care about even uses USB3. No Thunderbolt3, ok, but I don't have any TB devices and I'm unlikely to get any now that I see Apple is recommitting to PCI solutions. Sure...benchmarks and stats. If you care, go get a $15k MacPro. But my $2k 5,1 MacPro is actually working perfectly fine and I expect it to keep working perfectly fine for at least 3 more years, maybe 5. And even after that it will still be an extremely useful machine to keep as a VePro slave or whatever... It has tremendous power in it, even today. I could even switch to running Windows10 on it if I wanted since Apple won't support it anymore. (shrug)


Storage - Old interface protocols, which barley keeps up with even low tier stuff. But, more modular than anything has released with lots of room for more drives.
As I said already, I've already updated it to sata3. It supports M.2 if you get a pci card for that, but I chose not to because I'm already invested in SSD III, which works perfectly fine. Try using m.2 on a mini or iMac by the way.

So yes, great computer right now. It just doesn't have much head room left in 2020. I would not say it would make another 5 years as a serious workhorse machine.
I disagree. Mine will be 3-5 more years of heavy use. Like I said earlier, if you have i9 envy or you;'re the kind of person that always needs to have the fastest hardware on the block or the latest version of OSX for that matter, then it may not be the best solution for you. But I say, why over spend? These most definitely are still workhorse machines and until I we see extremely cpu hungry applications or plugins hitting the market, they will continue to serve very well. Lack of AVX and sluggish single core performance is really the only hindrance for what we do, and basically as of now in late 2019, I'm still not having any problems with either of those things... (shrug).
 

Damarus

Active Member
As I said already, I've already updated it to sata3. It supports M.2 if you get a pci card for that, but I chose not to because I'm already invested in SSD III, which works perfectly fine. Try using m.2 on a mini or iMac by the way.
Apple's Gen4 / Gen5 SSDs have been on PCIe 3.0 speeds since 2015ish.

Yes yes I know, if its not broke why fix it. I've had my computer for 4 years now, and I get huge discounts on Intel processor/MoBo combos, I could easily upgrade every other year. This is all about the OP.

What I'm saying is buying a old Mac Pro now is risky. When the new Mac Pro comes out, Apple is going to make staying on old Mac Pros very difficult over the next few years. This is not uncommon of Apple.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
I really hope that apple does make it easier to move to a new MacPro. but as of now, its easy decision. 5,1 all the way for me!

I don't consider it risky either. The amount of money saved more then makes up for any change coming down the pike. You can pay a ton of money for something newer and faster and watch it depreciate... Everyone has their own way of thinking about it. If the new MacPro were more affordable we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 

Damarus

Active Member
Yeah its pretty absurd how high its priced right now. Not even the 5,1 or 6,1 Mac pros were that high I dont think?
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
They were not. Admittedly the new MacPro's are a true work of art in terms of their fancy case, ability to handle that new fancy and overpriced display, etc.. Its a killer machine, but its simply put a top top tier desktop solution...with a top top price too. With Apple right now you can choose that or one of the all-in-one consumer solutions. mid tier power solution is nonexistent. The trashcan is the last one, still being sold today, and some may prefer that one over the cheese grater, it does have slightly newer CPU (with AVX) and some faster ports, but I still prefer a hot rodded cheesgrater at this point because of PCI slots and internal drive bays.

I think in 3-5 years, it will be possible to get one of these new fancy MacPros for less money...that may be an option. or perhaps Apple will pull their head out and give us a mid tier tower. I'm not holding my breathe though. They never really did last time. I had to wait fro cheese graters to be available on the used market before i could justify one. I've never paid more than $3000 for a computer and don't really plan to start now.
 

Symfoniq

Senior Member
Yeah its pretty absurd how high its priced right now. Not even the 5,1 or 6,1 Mac pros were that high I dont think?
I think it's pretty evident at this point that the Mac Pro 7,1 isn't targeting the same market as the Mac Pro 5,1 (and prior). I see the new Mac Pro 7,1 as more like a Power Mac 9600 (maximum expandability at any price) while the Mac Pro 5,1 was more like the Power Mac 8600 (good expandability at a good price).

I personally think there's a giant hole in Apple's lineup where a Mac Mini Pro would fit nicely. One can dream.
 
OP
mc_deli

mc_deli

n trepreneur
That was not my point. My point was, stop buying shit thats almost 8+ years old because its viable NOW.

Again if everyone reading this is not concerned about performance-per-dollar then these discussions are irrelevant.

I mean seriously guys - this is the multi-threaded score for a mini. The iMac is way higher. not to mention Thunderbolt 3 everything

View attachment 25010
Very good point. Maxed out 64GB aftermarket RAM, 512 SSD and extra HD 2018 Mac Mini comes out at about the same as a maxed 96GB 2012 MP (about 2200 euros inc tax for me).

For me that makes the Mini a very easy choice over the cheese grater.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
In the time since Logic Pro X was released, Ableton has released 2 major versions with a ton of new features. Max4Live integration and devices, new synths, new plugins, completely new rewritten UI engine, libraries, etc. And let's not forget about their expansion into hardware with 2 versions of Push, or releasing a crossplatform SDK/protocol (Link) for syncing musical apps.

Or look at Bitwig, a super small company that in just the last 5 years has released 3 major versions of its crossplatform DAW. The last one includes a complete modular environment.

I stopped using Cubase before switching to Logic Pro 7 ages ago, but from what I've seen on forums and youtube videos it is also going full steam ahead.

So while these companies are constantly innovating their products and introducing new revolutionary features Logic Pro is still shipping with ancient plugins (eg: Ultrabeat) which haven't been updated in 15 years. Or Space designer which has been untouched since its introduction in Logic Pro 8 in 2007 or so I believe?

Apple, with its considerable resources, would not ship macOS, iOS, FinalCut, or any of its more popular products with 15 years old stuff in it because it cares about those products.
Every 10.x update has had major improvements included. Many of the lesser updates have included substantial Improvements and added features. There are lots of new plugins and instruments that have been added. In terms of my usability, Logic has improved more in the last five years than Studio One, which is the other DAW I use a lot. I didn’t make the move to Ableton 10, but progress on it was also at or behind the rate of Logic during the period I kept them both active and I did have a Push though I never liked the workflow.

My only concern with Logic is that Apple may decide to do to it what they did to Final Cut Pro. Since they did it to FCP, there is always that danger.
 

Damarus

Active Member
I think it's pretty evident at this point that the Mac Pro 7,1 isn't targeting the same market as the Mac Pro 5,1 (and prior). I see the new Mac Pro 7,1 as more like a Power Mac 9600 (maximum expandability at any price) while the Mac Pro 5,1 was more like the Power Mac 8600 (good expandability at a good price).

I personally think there's a giant hole in Apple's lineup where a Mac Mini Pro would fit nicely. One can dream.
Which definitely makes me feel that there is a Mac Mini Pro or somthing to fill that gap coming in the near future. Or maybe Apple doesnt see it that way lol
 
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Nick Batzdorf

Moderator
Moderator
They are worth every penny of $2k. I don’t think you can get a loaded up cheese grater for $1000 yet.
Two things. First, I agree they're absolutely worth every penny of $2k - if you already own one. My objection to spending that much for one today is just that it seems like to invest in a 10-year-old machine.

If I were spending that much I'd be looking at the machines I mentioned. They weren't around when I was looking three years ago.

Second, I just looked, and there actually are several with 3.06 or slightly below 3.46GHz processors and 32GB for well under $1K! That's a viable option if you don't want to invest a lot of money (relatively) right now. They're not going to lose a lot of value if you decide to upgrade.