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Synchron player strange high ringing sound - Issues running at 48kHz!

brett

Active Member
Hi all

I posted this over at the VSL forum and have had no response either there or from VSL support as yet so thought I'd try here.

I recently purchased Synchron Percussion I Drums and the Bass drum has a strange ringing that I can only describe as similar to that high pitched sound you get when you lower the bit rate. I thought it was restricted to the Bass drum but it is actually audible in ALL of my Synchron library instruments, it's just more noticeable with low frequencies (with high frequency sounds the ringing sound is masked).

I've attached a WAV file to illustrate. This sound is NOT present in any of my Vienna Instruments libraries or Kontakt libraries

I then discovered that it looks like it's due to a sample rate issue with the Synchron player working at 48kHz, because working in Cubase at 44.1kHz fixes the problem. However, I have to work and deliver at 48kHz for film so this isn't a solution for me.

I've tried hosting the Synchron player in Cubase directly or within VEP and the ringing is present if the sample rate in cubase us set to 48kHz but not at 44.1kHz. Likewise, when using the Synchron player in stand-alone mode (independent of Cubase entirely) the same is true - If I go into preferences and set the sample rate to 48kHz (and my RME interface Hammerfall DSP Settings changes the sample rate to reflect this as you'd expect) the ringing is present. Switching back to 44.1kHz in the standalone application (with my RME interface Settings mirroring this as normal) and the ringing is gone

Like I said above, I don't have this behavior in the Vienna Instruments plugin or Kontakt so this is clearly a Synchron player issue.

Help!

Brett
 

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brett

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Brett,

the VSL User Forum isn't the official support channel. Send a mail to support@vsl.co.at - they will get back to you with a solution ASAP.

Hi Dietz. I’ve already contacted support a couple of days ago but haven’t heard back yet so have reached out to the user base here and at the VSL forum
 

Ben

VSL
Hi @brett,

We'll investigate and come back to you asap. We are swamped in work at the moment, especially because it's summer-time :)
We have just completed beta testing an important fix for the Synchron Players and will see into your case after release.

Best, Ben
 
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brett

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Thanks Ben.

I know you're answering on the VSL thread but for those following at home, to test Ben's suggestion to bypass my RME drivers to narrow things down, I installed ASIO4All..

ASIO4All works perfectly at 44.1kHz AND at 96kHz BUT the digital ringing is present at 48kHz
The RME works perfectly at 44.1kHz but gets progressively worse at higher sample rates BUT if I toggle the preferences wrench without changing anything I can get the RME to work at 96kHz perfectly (This is a new discovery). So on my system it's a problem with upsampling to 48kHz only regardless of the audio driver.

I would love it if any other Synchron Percussion I users could load the Kolberg Bass Drum to test at 48kHz for me! And then compare at 44.1kHz. It's easiest to hear on on the Kolberg but if you turn up the volume you can hear it on any other deep sounding drum, eg Big Bang Dorado, or even the Synchron Timpani.

It feels like that there is a problem with the Synchron player upsampling from the native 44.1kHz to 48kHz in some systems, and this can be demonstrated with multiple ASIO drivers.

I've attached a video at the VSL thread with me illustrating the behaviour I described above and you can clearly hear the digital ringing at 48kHz and not at 44.1kHz even through my iPhone's crappy mic. Listening to the movie through headphones makes it even clearer. The same behaviour is exhibited by the RME driver and the ASIO4All driver so is driver independent.

Can anyone out there confirm this? Or is it just my system?

Brett
 

Ben

VSL
It feels like that there is a problem with the Synchron player upsampling from the native 44.1kHz to 48kHz in some systems, and this can be demonstrated with multiple ASIO drivers.
See, that's the thing: I can't reproduce it - so it does not look like just a Synchron Player issue. It might be an issue with a combination of software and components.
 
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brett

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You might be right. Do you have any suggestions? I'm running out of ideas. I still haven't heard from VSL support and it's been almost a week now.

The thing is that it's not an issue with the VI player so there's something about the Synchron player in combination with something else common to my system that's triggering this. And it's independent of the audio driver. What else is left? It's not the OS itself because as you said, you're on the same version as me. And as you can hear in my VSL forum iPhone video the issue is pretty obvious - it's not a subtle sound.

I'm prepared to try anything wild you can think of :)

B
 

Simeon

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You might be right. Do you have any suggestions? I'm running out of ideas. I still haven't heard from VSL support and it's been almost a week now.

The thing is that it's not an issue with the VI player so there's something about the Synchron player in combination with something else common to my system that's triggering this. And it's independent of the audio driver. What else is left? It's not the OS itself because as you said, you're on the same version as me. And as you can hear in my VSL forum iPhone video the issue is pretty obvious - it's not a subtle sound.

I'm prepared to try anything wild you can think of :)

B
So I had a very strange issue with some very annoying high frequency buzzing with Synchron Pianos.
It seemed there could have been an issue with the sample installation.
I removed the installed library files, downloaded, extracted, installed again, and voila!

it’s worth a shot. Sometimes with all of the complicated download and compression components things can go south.

I hope it helps?
 

Jimmy Hellfire

Senior Member
FWIW, I was able to reproduce this with my little Steinberg UR22 mkII interface. Tried the Kolberg bass drum.

No issues at 44.1 kHz, but at 48 kHz at there is a ringing sound at ca. 3.9k and subsequently the octaves above. At 96 kHz, it's gone again.

Win 10, Cubase 10.5 latest version, latest Synchron Player build.
 

Salorom

Active Member
On a side note, I always work in 44.1, even for TV, and upsample the final track to 48 if need be. Saves ressources and time spent fixing potential issues.

Most libraries are delivered in 24/44.1, working in 48 in a project where no audio needs to be recorded at said sample rate makes little sense :)
 

Ben

VSL
@Jimmy Hellfire could you please list your hardware details? If this something in our player I'm sure we can fix it. But these things can get pretty complicated if we are not able to reproduce...

@brett I'm on this issue, but please have a little patience - it's summer time and we also need a little air to breath after the last months, knowing whats coming in the next ones ;)
As soon as we have an idea or solution I'll come back to you (and btw your mail in support is assigned to me for analyzing, so if I answer a question here or in the VSL forum I will not send you the same info via mail again :) )
 

Mihkel Zilmer

Senior Member
I can also reproduce this. Sounds like a bitcrusher. Only happens at 48kHz sample rate.

I tried Kolberg bass drum from SP I and Lefima bass drum from SP II, I can easily hear it in both.

I'm hosting Synchron Player on a separate computer, here are the specs for both:

DAW:
Nuendo 10.3
Windows 10 (version 1909)
RME UFX, latest drivers
i9 9900k
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro Wifi

Sample server:
VEPRO, latest build
Windows 10 (1903)
Synchron Player latest release
i7 6900k
ASUS x99-DELUXE II
 

JPQ

Senior Member
i maybe test soon vsl syncronized special edition vol 1.(i have port parts). even i also work only 44.1khz now. i try look with metters even. and i use widows 10 pro and i see one uses windows 10 any mac users have this? i try think all possible reasons.
 

JPQ

Senior Member
i used windows 10 pro,studio one 5 pro,vsl synchfonzied special eidtion and looked bass drum samples on and snare and i used 48khz project and my interface (octacapture is set 48khz) my ears,and eyes two ways (studio one scope and fft analyze tool i dont see anywhing like this) i used also eyes becouse i maybe dont hear tiny ones what are tiny my volumes and my ears. and i dont know if gong should high notes such what it sounds here bit froggy like weird resonance i dont know how supposed sound. i can make demo. and check if does also with 44.1khz soon. but maybe not today. i changed my mind i tested also happens 44.1khz but i dont know gong very well. its only gong what i have so wide range of keys used. oddly when i try set my interface to 192khz dont have go but goes cycling all possible rates,44.1khz,48khz and 96khz and 192khz maybe also 88.2khz.
 
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brett

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@Mihkel Zilmer, @Jimmy Hellfire, @Simeon, @JPQ and @Salorom thank you all. I'm grateful you took the time to check this out for me. I thought I was going crazy. Not that I'm glad others have this issue but it's good to know it's not ridiculously uncommon which will make it easier for VSL to track down.

@Mihkel Zilmer and @Jimmy Hellfire, do you guys routinely work at 48kHz or do you work at 44.1kHz hence have not spotted it? Maybe I should take your advice @Salorom and switch from 48kHz to 44.1kHz then bounce at 48kHz. I will have to experiment and see if this saves me significant resources. It does make me wonder how many composers working in film simply work at 44.1kHz and then upsample. I just assumed everyone worked at 48kHz...

@brett I'm on this issue, but please have a little patience - it's summer time and we also need a little air to breath after the last months, knowing whats coming in the next ones ;)
As soon as we have an idea or solution I'll come back to you (and btw your mail in support is assigned to me for analyzing, so if I answer a question here or in the VSL forum I will not send you the same info via mail again :) )

Apologies Ben. I was unaware you had been assigned to my support ticket. I am grateful you are onto this and I will be patient!

B
 
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Salorom

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@Salorom and switch from 48kHz to 44.1kHz then bounce at 48kHz.
You can do that. I personally bounce at 44.1 then routinely batch upsample all necessary files in RX, it’s what sounds best. The tip originally came from one of the mastering engineers I work with. You will definitely find it less taxing on your system.
 

Mihkel Zilmer

Senior Member
@Mihkel Zilmer and @Jimmy Hellfire, do you guys routinely work at 48kHz or do you work at 44.1kHz hence have not spotted it?

I always work at 48kHz. I am mostly combining samples with orchestral recordings, those sessions are usually at 48kHz or 96kHz. Hadn't spotted it since I hadn't really used the bass drum - I am spoiled by too many great percussion libraries at my disposal..
 
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brett

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Hi @Ben

Any idea when the next Synchron player release is due? Will the fix be included in the upcoming release?

Many thanks
 

Ben

VSL
Any idea when the next Synchron player release is due? Will the fix be included in the upcoming release?
Sorry, no ETA at the moment. Our dev team is working on a different product right now, but the Synchron Player is next in line to get some maintainance updates.
Like many other companies we are also experiencing some delays, caused by the current situation.
 

heisenberg

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I always work at 48kHz. I am mostly combining samples with orchestral recordings, those sessions are usually at 48kHz or 96kHz. Hadn't spotted it since I hadn't really used the bass drum - I am spoiled by too many great percussion libraries at my disposal..

If one does work for hire, it is or should be in 48K if you work in video particularly. Video from prosumer all the way up to location sound recorded material on set is done in 48K (or higher). This is the FIRST time in my career it has been suggested that I back down to 44.1 kHz.

Cautionary note to those working on paid gigs... Make sure you don't accidentally hit "resample source material" when you change the sample rate on your devices, sound utilties and most IMPORTANTLY your DAW. Otherwise you may be in for a big bag of hurt that won't go away unless you have done a thorough backup of your source audio and have the time to reconstitute everything once you have made the mistake.

Interesting story. The reason we have CD audio at 44.1 kHz is back in the seventies, Herbert von Karajan, knowing about the change that was taking place in the research labs regarding sound development wanted to get the Compact Disc and digital format nailed down so he could have a digital record of the key works he had in his performance repertoire, that is, before he pegged out. So the format was rushed out as quickly as possible to accomodate his wishes so they could begin re-recording his stable of pieces that he regularly conducted. So you can blame him for the lousy & muddy high end transients that we have had to suffer through for the past 4 or so decades.

Here is some of the first compact disc recording that was commercially available. None other than good old Claudio Arrau playing a bunch of Chopin.



Arrau's 24 Preludes by Chopin, BTW is astounding, at least in my books.
 
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