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SWAM 'All in Bundle' as my one-and-only library: Tell me if I'm wrong.

SWAM scares me because I will NOT—not now and maybe not ever—be able to play those instruments effectively in real time. A month ago I read everything I could find about SWAM, and watched YouTube vids until my eyes bled. Never did absolutely answer my own question:

Is it possible to record the instrument in my DAW with one real-time "expression," for example Volume changes, and then come back afterward to add more expression lanes in the DAW track? For example, can I add and subsequently modify a Vibrato expression lane later on?

Can that be done, and have you (and others) gotten good results doing it that way?
I find the Swam instruments to be extremely real time in terms of how they are used and recorded.

As others have mentioned you can go back and enhance your performance any way you want in your daw but you will spend a lot of time doing it.

For me personally going in and perpetually fine tuning the performance is something that I really don’t want to do as it feels more like programming software rather than writing music.
 
In my experience this far, I’d say this. Getting a sound out of them is really easy. Getting a good, expressive, musical sound out of them is a lot more work. They are a unique instrument that you will have to learn to play. And you might spend a lot of time chasing that expressive sound that you want by buying a wind-controller and a nice reverb because IMO, these instruments sound a lot better with a wet signal.
Wow. I hit the jackpot with this thread. You guys are all very helpful and I truly appreciate this level of discourse. This sort of insight. It's valuable as advice, and valuable in terms of sparing me (and anyone reads this) from perhaps making expensive purchases in wrong directions. Your highlighted remark above is my impression of the SWAM instruments, and I LIKE that. I want to learn to play them...AS INSTRUMENTS as you say...but I'm not sure I'll ever have the chops. And that's an important reason for my launching this thread. Thanks.

On the other hand, there are other instruments that have a lot more of the expressive performance baked in and are quicker to get a lovely sound from.
Another very helpful distinction.

To my ear, the SWAM instruments seem to be at different levels of realism so I’d consider each instrument on its own. For example, maybe the strings have the sound you like, but that doesn’t mean the oboe will be as well-matched.
I will seek more demonstrations / videos with that in mind. Also, when I get closer to a decision will absolutely request a free trial.

...I’m also checking out the new release from acousticsamples (VWinds are on sale right now). They sound expressive and lightweight even though they are not a pure physical model. But passing a physical modeling purity-test isn’t going to guarantee good music.
Point taken, and much appreciated. I have a lot to learn, and now that you guys are expanding my awareness, I have a better idea of where to look next. Thanks to you all.

You can always complete your bundles later. I started with just the SWAM solo violin (which I like). That was enough so that I had a more grounded idea of what I can get out of it based on what I put in. I’d recommend that route.
It's funny. The prices of these libraries are HIGH. If you've been swimming in this pool for a while, I suppose they don't jar you (like the frog slowly coming to a boil, ha). I think we become desensitized—no matter what we're shopping for—once we become accustomed to "the going rate." Whether a library, a car, a house. Once we get used to the "typical price range" we're able to focus only on relative/comparable prices within that range. At least that's what happens to me.

And if you're actually earning decent remuneration with these tools, the price might be more acceptable. But I'm neither used to this market's price range, nor am I earning a dime by using any library. So I'm struggling with Price, and as such, am susceptable to the "Penny wise, pound foolish" tendency. I look at the HIGH cost of the SWAM All in Bundle, and compare it to the EVEN HIGHER cost of assembling the same (or similar) combined library piecemeal. My inclination is to buy the entire bundle to save a few hundred bucks, BUT...as you astutely point out, half of that bundle might not suit my needs... As usual, no easy answers. Thank you.

They are also going to have actual string sections (supposedly later this year) which I’m really excited about.

Good luck!
That's Audio Modeling / SWAM who's planning string sections later this year...? Or do you mean another source?

Thanks for the good wishes. I think I'll have much better "luck" armed with insights gleaned from the helpful comments you and others contribute to this thread. THANK YOU ALL.
 
I bought the All In bundle about a year and a half ago discounted to $1,049 from Sweetwater (as part of an order w/other software). I think that's a ballpark figure for a good price after talking to a sales rep there, but your mileage may vary, discounts and prices change over time.

I owned some of the SWAM strings, so I knew to an extent what I was getting into -- I sold them off, then bought the All In Bundle.

I use a breath controller, and while I could see playing all the instruments without one, I'd have to do a lot more of after-played-in expression programming instead of using it. It's much more fun with the BC for someone like myself who wants to play it in as representative as I can of it in finished condition.

You are going to want to buy a good reverb or two to add on to this library, and maybe a pre-amp emulation or two to get more out of it.

Definitely one of my top/favorite purchases ever, the SWAM stuff.
 
I think I should add, breath controllers are great fun in and of themselves, and it didn't take me long at all to get it to do what I reasonably wanted it to do. I don't play any actual acoustic wind instruments. YMMV again of course, not everyone takes to them, but really IMO they are great.
 
They're polarizing instruments. In the right hands they work very well but it may be too much technical work.
Actually, I feel I get close to great right off the bat with the aforementioned Breath Controller; natural solo instrument phrasing (dynamics that rise and fall when I want them to!) that is often difficult to achieve with sampled instruments. BC is, IMO, a most intuitive way to, literally, breathe life into performance. I also input vibrato depth as I perform, using either Keyboard Aftertouch or the Modwheel. I also have vibrato speed attached to the BC2 Nod gesture, just a gentle amount (controllable via the BC2 App). It's all quite expressively fantastic!

Follow up with cleanup in the DAW as required and you're good to go.
 
Might be worth taking a look at Acoustic Samples. They seem to be homing in on a setup that combines the best of sampling and modelling, without requiring time consuming midi massaging to get the best out of them. Their saxophones were a significant step up from their horns, though they closed the gap with an update, and their winds seem to be the best yet.
Absolutely! Just got their double tongue winds and brass...it's above the rest ( at least for the winds)
 
That's Audio Modeling / SWAM who's planning string sections later this year...? Or do you mean another source?
 
They are all great for PLAYING. But I think that if I didn't already own an EWI and have experience in playing physical saxes and flutes I would probably not have the time to invest in working up the needed playing chops... and finding out how to balance all the MIDI CC streams to get a good result from playing your custom setup. There are a lot of tactile gestures in playing reed instruments and the control options of the SWAMs can match that pretty well.
 
I think SWAMS bundle is great for this. Go for it. However i think that the sound is not completely realistic. You can sometimes tell its not an acoustic instrument. I think. HOWEVER the organic expression that its able to generate is in par with any real instrument. So it outways everything. Especially if its not the only sound in the song as they will mask each others small flaws.

Although i am dissapointed you cant really use them as elemnts of an orchestra. Like if you would put for violins together and expect them to be a violin section. It takes a lot of work to not make them sound weird. But you wrote that you are going for smaller ensembles so thats great!
 
I have all of them. You need a breath controller for the winds and brass. Leap Motion with Midipaw works better than the breath controller for the strings but breath alone is fine.
My online research To-do list:
1. Leap Motion
2. Midipaw
Sure, you can do modwheel only and then draw in everything else...it's a chore. Will really slow you down.
Twas ever thus: A lack of funds must be balanced by additional time and work and creativity
MIR completely transforms them into much more useful and versatile instruments, there's nothing better.
My online research To-do list:
3. MIR
Tbh you're doing too much writing and not enough playing/testing.
Without first spending hundreds, I have nothing to test. That's why I'm writing these questions, so far.
Request a demo and see if they work for you at all. Some people really like them, others hate them. They're polarizing instruments. In the right hands they work very well but it may be too much technical work.
I will ask for demos once I have a better handle on what's available, and what everything costs. Thanks for the suggestions.
 
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You and I are in a similar situation. My use of VIs is not so much in the orchestral realm, but mostly solo instruments for various kinds of folk and traditional ensemble music. I get a lot of mileage out of my SWAM libraries. When I need a solo sax, flute, or clarinet, I almost always reach for SWAM, because the modeling allows me to craft an exposed, solo performance from scratch that breathes with a fluid, lifelike quality.
YES! You get me. =D
The only downside is what others have already mentioned above: making a SWAM instrument sing requires a little more work. Just controlling velocity, expression, and vibrato will get you much of the way there, but it's when you dig into some of the other parameters that you really start crafting the performance.
That's my impression based on various SWAM YouTube demonstrations I've watched. I think spending LOTS of time exploring those UI parameters will pay off BIG...once I develop a natural understanding of exactly what they do. On the other hand, if I can write DAW Automation after the fact, I'll gladly put in the work to "get it right" that way, until I learn to play more effectively in real time. In fact, I think pouring over the automation edits will help me internalize some of those effects/embellishments for subsequent real-time playing.
Many people use breath controllers with SWAM. I have one, but I rarely use it. My preference is to play the notes in and then spend hours afterward editing everything with a mouse.
If I can get my hands (or lips or teeth?) on that TEControl device I'm sure it'll become second nature, with LOTS of practice/experimentation. Money. Money. Money. Money. Ugh.
I have no experience with Audio Modeling SWAM Brass, though. I mostly use Sample Modeling for solo brass.
I know nothing yet about 'Sample Modeling' or 'Acoustic Samples' instruments/libraries, but based on the helpful suggestions here, I will study up. Thanks to you and others for these insights.
 
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They are all great for PLAYING. But I think that if I didn't already own an EWI and have experience in playing physical saxes and flutes I would probably not have the time to invest in working up the needed playing chops... and finding out how to balance all the MIDI CC streams to get a good result from playing your custom setup. There are a lot of tactile gestures in playing reed instruments and the control options of the SWAMs can match that pretty well.
Thank you, Per. I don't know what an 'EWI' is, so I'm not quite sure what your point is...

Are you saying it will be difficult for me to learn to coordinate all the simultaneous skills/gestures needed to PLAY the SWAM instruments (or comparables) effectively?

Or are you saying it will be worthwhile for someone like me, who does not play actual wind instruments (or bowed string instruments), to invest my time in developing the skill to play these virtual wind and bowed instruments?

I hope it's the latter... =]
 
I bought the All In bundle about a year and a half ago discounted to $1,049 from Sweetwater (as part of an order w/other software). I think that's a ballpark figure for a good price after talking to a sales rep there, but your mileage may vary, discounts and prices change over time.

I owned some of the SWAM strings, so I knew to an extent what I was getting into -- I sold them off, then bought the All In Bundle.

I use a breath controller, and while I could see playing all the instruments without one, I'd have to do a lot more of after-played-in expression programming instead of using it. It's much more fun with the BC for someone like myself who wants to play it in as representative as I can of it in finished condition.

You are going to want to buy a good reverb or two to add on to this library, and maybe a pre-amp emulation or two to get more out of it.

Definitely one of my top/favorite purchases ever, the SWAM stuff.
Thanks a LOT for this post and your follow-up. These are the perspectives that matter to me at this point, and yes, I've been aware of Sweetwater's price for a while now. It's not as low as the price you paid, but then I won't be buying it with anything else (that's for sure, ha). In keeping with your report, I think the breath controller would be a blast(!)

I'm glad you consider the SWAM instruments one of your favorite purchases. That's what I anticipate as well, and at such a cost, I need to be very sure before I purchase. Every source states very clearly, "NO RETURNS on this item." =O
 
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Actually, I feel I get close to great right off the bat with the aforementioned Breath Controller; natural solo instrument phrasing (dynamics that rise and fall when I want them to!) that is often difficult to achieve with sampled instruments. BC is, IMO, a most intuitive way to, literally, breathe life into performance. I also input vibrato depth as I perform, using either Keyboard Aftertouch or the Modwheel. I also have vibrato speed attached to the BC2 Nod gesture, just a gentle amount (controllable via the BC2 App). It's all quite expressively fantastic!

Follow up with cleanup in the DAW as required and you're good to go.
Ahhhh. =] I might disappear for days at a time.
 
I think SWAMS bundle is great for this. Go for it. However i think that the sound is not completely realistic. You can sometimes tell its not an acoustic instrument. I think. HOWEVER the organic expression that its able to generate is in par with any real instrument. So it outways everything. Especially if its not the only sound in the song as they will mask each others small flaws.

Although i am dissapointed you cant really use them as elemnts of an orchestra. Like if you would put for violins together and expect them to be a violin section. It takes a lot of work to not make them sound weird. But you wrote that you are going for smaller ensembles so thats great!
I appreciate your remarks! =D I'm hoping I can "massage and embellish" using "studio tricks" to make my chosen VIs completely believable.

I read somewhere (no idea where now) that it can be difficult to combine modeled instruments into sections. Having no experience with these things, I'm not sure what to make of that, but I imagine something like sound sources with complicated out-of-phase issues...(?) I need to learn more about the problem, and what can be done to overcome it. Thank you for bringing it up.
 
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I read somewhere (no idea where now) that it can be difficult to combine modeled instruments into sections. Having no experience with these things, I'm not sure what to make of that, but I imagine something like sound sources with complicated out-of-phase issues...(?) I need to learn more about the problem, and what can be done to overcome it. Thank you for bring it up.
That's where the Unison Anti-phasing setting comes in:

1685686828957.png

In this example from SWAM Brass, you can combine up to 5 instruments to play in unison without them phasing.

From the SWAM Brass manual:

1685687120578.png
 
I have SWAM Saxophones and SampleModeling Strings. With Midipaw you can control several CC parameters at the same time very easily, and that makes the instruments SO expressive!

For me, that solution is very effective for solo instruments. I often have more than 5 CC parameters set up in MidiPaw, and if you organize yourself correctly and set up the parameters in a convenient way, you can easily even blend several of those parameters live with one movement. MidiPaw is very powerful.

But I also have samples libraries. Why? Because they are more effective for larger sections. With SampleModeling Strings for example, it would be so hard to play a regular and professional staccato. Samples come from professional players with realistic Round Robins. To keep a regular articulation over several measures, samples are still a necessity IMHO.
 
Are you saying it will be difficult for me to learn to coordinate all the simultaneous skills/gestures needed to PLAY the SWAM instruments (or comparables) effectively?
Do not get too intimidated by all the parameters - as you learn to play the SWAM instruments the majority of expression and flexibility will come from just mastering the

1. Velocity (defines the attack of the note, and the speed of legato)
2. Expression (defines the dynamics)
3. Vibrato Depth (controls strength of vibrato, but not speed)

If you use these three parameters effectively, you will be able to craft more expressive performances than most people can pull off with samples. Start with these and work your way up. Next thing should be vibrato speed after this.

A breath and bite controller is amazing for this, as you can control dynamics with breath and vibrato depth with bite in real time. It feels way more intuitive than it sounds.
 
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