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Studio One users, how do you find S1 for big orchestral projects?

jbuhler

Senior Member
As you've seen we could not reproduce your issue. So if you want the support (and the developers) to be able to reproduce it you should provide a song file.

How to strip it down:
1) Keep only the two involved instrument tracks
2) Remove unused instruments (there's a new command for that in the instrument rack). In the best case you remove ALL instruments.
3) If it does not work without the instruments try to replicate it with a basic Presence XT patch

That's enough to give them a chance to reproduce the issue.
Oddly, if I strip the instrument away then I don't have options to add any new parameters to the automation window. And the additional lanes I created disappeared when I removed the instrument, except expression. Fortunately, it does exhibit the symptom.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
and you can modify the toolbar with your own macros right?

What I do know about the javascript access is that you can specify a particular track to do things to. and there is one javascript command which basically can execute any macro function. Anyway, its not documented and hard to figure out, but I might at least try to figure out a way to make it easier to articulate notes somehow.

but again, I see this as a way of inserting some kind of midi event which is the equivalent of a single cubase expression map. then I will use a VST plugin to translate that into whatever simple or complex keyswitches and channelizing is needed.

Here are two examples of the way I'm using the macros. For CSS because it has a velocity based key switch in place of the modulation wheel for some articulations, I threw a velocity macro in too. Its a bit more complicated for CSS, but for most other libraries its just a matter for picking your keyswitch and going, like in the second example for 8DIO Anthology. Not picking best articulations here, just showing how it works.

CSS

8DIO Anthology

I'd be interested to see how a VST could make all of this far smoother a process.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
Thanks for sharing, very cool! Its cool that S1 has macro capability and able to put into the toolbar... That alone is worth the price of admission.

So you were not able to get the macro to set the duration of your keyswitches automatically, you have to apply them to staccato length as a separate manual step?

The main point of a VST is not to eliminate some of what you're doing with macros, you still need a way to add SOMETHING to the tracks that will indicate which articulation to play. But the point is that you can hide the details. instead of embedding keyswitches into the track, which are completely different for every library, you embed a single event per articulation.. this could be a program change, or a CC message, or an automation point, or could also be a single keyswitch event too if you want. Then in the VST you map each of those to perform during playback whatever you need to for each sample library. Some sample libraries need to be channelized, some need keyswitches, sometimes more then one keyswitch. Some combine both. And there are other interesting issues such as latency compensation between articulations with slow attacks and other factors like that. All of the details like that can be buried inside a "map" in the VST. Then all you have to do in the DAW is find some way to tell the VST at any given moment which articulation you want enforced. LogicPro does this by letting you assign an articulationID to each event. Cubase does this with Expression Maps, which I'm not much of a fan. DP provides nothing, S1 provides nothing. But with a VST, you could still at least use ProgramChange events or CC's or automation points, etc.. to be the indicator of which articulation to use...a single event presents a single articulation, even if inside the VST its doing more elaborate stuff, depending on the sample library being used. It keeps your tracks much more simple in the DAW. This also provides a way to use a consistent approach, in other words, you could have it so that PC1 always means staccato. Then in the VST you decide for each sample library how to map PC1 into whatever each sample library needs to play staccato. But in S1 you just always use the same PC1 for staccato. That's a simple example, but you get the point.

I have other more elaborate ideas for the VST which will expand what is possible when combining libraries, applying note expressions, automatically doing legato on the fly, etc.. Anything that reduces the need to manually massage the midi data on the track in order to get articulations. My dream is, I enter the notes, I quantize them to the grid, I put simple tags (as events) to indicate which articulation for each note or phrase...then let the VST humanize, legatoize, send keyswitches, channelize or whatever it needs to according to the sample library map defined within.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
Thanks for sharing, very cool! Its cool that S1 has macro capability and able to put into the toolbar... That alone is worth the price of admission.

So you were not able to get the macro to set the duration of your keyswitches automatically, you have to apply them to staccato length as a separate manual step?

The main point of a VST is not to eliminate some of what you're doing with macros, you still need a way to add SOMETHING to the tracks that will indicate which articulation to play. But the point is that you can hide the details. instead of embedding keyswitches into the track, which are completely different for every library, you embed a single event per articulation.. this could be a program change, or a CC message, or an automation point, or could also be a single keyswitch event too if you want. Then in the VST you map each of those to perform during playback whatever you need to for each sample library. Some sample libraries need to be channelized, some need keyswitches, sometimes more then one keyswitch. Some combine both. And there are other interesting issues such as latency compensation between articulations with slow attacks and other factors like that. All of the details like that can be buried inside a "map" in the VST. Then all you have to do in the DAW is find some way to tell the VST at any given moment which articulation you want enforced. LogicPro does this by letting you assign an articulationID to each event. Cubase does this with Expression Maps, which I'm not much of a fan. DP provides nothing, S1 provides nothing. But with a VST, you could still at least use ProgramChange events or CC's or automation points, etc.. to be the indicator of which articulation to use...a single event presents a single articulation, even if inside the VST its doing more elaborate stuff, depending on the sample library being used. It keeps your tracks much more simple in the DAW. This also provides a way to use a consistent approach, in other words, you could have it so that PC1 always means staccato. Then in the VST you decide for each sample library how to map PC1 into whatever each sample library needs to play staccato. But in S1 you just always use the same PC1 for staccato. That's a simple example, but you get the point.

I have other more elaborate ideas for the VST which will expand what is possible when combining libraries, applying note expressions, automatically doing legato on the fly, etc.. Anything that reduces the need to manually massage the midi data on the track in order to get articulations. My dream is, I enter the notes, I quantize them to the grid, I put simple tags (as events) to indicate which articulation for each note or phrase...then let the VST humanize, legatoize, send keyswitches, channelize or whatever it needs to according to the sample library map defined within.
Yeah it'd be ideal if Studio one provided similar options. People have been asking for years but still no luck. Checking now, I still dont see S1 responding to any of the parameters other than CC learn for some functions. Short of going into every library and changing their keyswitches to change to CC range, there is still no quick option to just make it all work.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
Well that's what a VST would provide a middle piece to connect them better. Even Logic and Cubase's articulation management is not perfect, its more than what S1 and DP have though.
 

Lukas

Keyboardist / composer
Oddly, if I strip the instrument away then I don't have options to add any new parameters to the automation window.
Yes that's logical. Without the instrument Studio One can't know which parameters / controllers are available for automation.
 

jonathanwright

Senior Member
I’ll bore anyone who listens talking about the Macro Toolbar!

Personally I prefer to have everything on one page, accessible by drop downs, so I have all I need in this:



The majority of actions have a key command assigned too, but it’s handy to have it all there for the less-often used macros.
 
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samphony

Senior Member
Some macros like that still might be useful. I just barely acquired S1, so I have yet to get into the macro capabilities. The thing I am working on could use midi events or automation to drive the selection of complicated or simple key switching and/or channelizing, and some other nice features related to typical articulation handling. So you could use automation to drive it, or you could use, for example, PC events to drive it, or other types of midi events to drive it...and you could still potentially use macros to make it quick and easy to assign these automation or midi events to the right place in some simple manner. I don't know the macro environment well enough yet to know what is possible there.

What i have now is not even close to being fit for public consumption yet, but I am slowly working on it and eventually it will be. Just wondering if something like this would suddenly make S1 much more articulation friendly?

DP has a similar issue, no articulation management, yet still even some important hollywood guys still swear by DP and they get by without articulation management. I think what I'm workin on would help them too. I even think some Logic and Cubase people might use it due to oddities with the solutions there, but we shall see. If I perceive there is a big enough demand here I might spend more time on it then I have been.
I think it comes down to preference. If you’re working with one articulation per track you can work that way easily in S1.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
you don't need any special articulation management if you use one articulation per track, but I don't like working that way. Many people feel the same way as I do. But I agree, if you like one articulation per track, then no problemo today with S1
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
Thanks! ok, submitted a ticket to support with video, but without the .song file since I wasn't certain how best to strip it down to submit it. I'm hoping support can let me know what they need.
Received a reply from support that wasn't especially helpful and basically said if I want the automation lanes to retain the state they were in before I shifted to another instrument then I need to make a feature request. Since folks around here seem to think this is already a thing, I was a bit surprised that support seems to think it's not the ordinary and expected behavior... I'm not even sure how I'd frame this as a feature request.

That said, I tried setting up a template from scratch and ended up with the same problem when I added HZ Strings, since the options available for it under automation do not conform exactly to the automation available for other instruments. When that happens S1 seems to get confused and shifts to a default state if I return to the instrument.

These are the kinds of issues I always seem to encounter when I work with S1 and it's one reason I can never solidly commit to it even though I like many things about it.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
Received a reply from support that wasn't especially helpful and basically said if I want the automation lanes to retain the state they were in before I shifted to another instrument then I need to make a feature request. Since folks around here seem to think this is already a thing, I was a bit surprised that support seems to think it's not the ordinary and expected behavior... I'm not even sure how I'd frame this as a feature request.

That said, I tried setting up a template from scratch and ended up with the same problem when I added HZ Strings, since the options available for it under automation do not conform exactly to the automation available for other instruments. When that happens S1 seems to get confused and shifts to a default state if I return to the instrument.

These are the kinds of issues I always seem to encounter when I work with S1 and it's one reason I can never solidly commit to it even though I like many things about it.
I suppose if you write it up that you'd like the lanes to retain their previous state, then other users can come in and upvote that feature for them to work on it.
 

Lukas

Keyboardist / composer
I can't reproduce it. It tried it even with different instruments (Spire and Mai Tai) which provide different parameters for automation. It still works as expected:


If nobody can reproduce it there's no change for this to get changed or fixed. If you sent me an example 2 track song with S1 internal instruments (or if that's not possible two empty KONTAKTs) where this happens I could take a look at it. But apparently you are not ready for it.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
I can't reproduce it. It tried it even with different instruments (Spire and Mai Tai) which provide different parameters for automation. It still works as expected:


If nobody can reproduce it there's no change for this to get changed or fixed. If you sent me an example 2 track song with S1 internal instruments (or if that's not possible two empty KONTAKTs) where this happens I could take a look at it. But apparently you are not ready for it.

Just figured it out. In the original video, the issue is that Control 21 is active on one track and not the other. Whenever switching to the track that doesnt have control 21 active/in use, it defaults back to velocity. It might be better if it just kept the control 21 view open even on tracks that aren't using it, but it doesnt seem like its a bug, as much as its just not sure what to do when the channel is not present on the track you're switching to. Looking at the situation I was able to recreate the problem for usability, its likely that because its only maintaining the state from instance to instance, rather than locking the view for each track, when after it defaults to velocity, when you switch back to the track with Control 21, it stays on velocity, and does not switch back to control 21 view.
 
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Lukas

Keyboardist / composer
That makes sense. But in my video I also added Portamento Time which is not available in the other instrument. Hmmm. I'll test it again later...
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
That makes sense. But in my video I also added Portamento Time which is not available in the other instrument. Hmmm. I'll test it again later...
just tried a bit more, and I used a track of presence and a Track of Nexus. Nexus apparently uses control 21, but presence does not, and I cant automate that channel at all. So I get the same results, where the presence track defaults to velocity. I assume this might be the same problem, and is perhaps something to do with the fact that some instruments actually dont even have control 21 available (Or they've named it something else). So perhaps the system has to default to velocity because there's no channel on that instrument for it to display.
 

Lukas

Keyboardist / composer
But that's only if you have selected (not just added) Control 21 right? I just tried it with KONTAKT and Control 21 and as long as it's just available in the automation lanes but not selected it nothing will be reset to Velocity when switching.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
But that's only if you have selected (not just added) Control 21 right? I just tried it with KONTAKT and Control 21 and as long as it's just available in the automation lanes but not selected it nothing will be reset to Velocity when switching.
I think it depends on how the instruments identify the channels. If you load up presence, you’ll see there’s no channel called channel 21. No doubt one of them is channel 21 but the way studio one is reading it, that channel doesn’t “exist” for presence.
 

samphony

Senior Member
you don't need any special articulation management if you use one articulation per track, but I don't like working that way. Many people feel the same way as I do. But I agree, if you like one articulation per track, then no problemo today with S1
I think my feature request for the articulation editor/ feature on answers.presonus.com has a lot of votes and I’m confident that you will see it sooner than later. It’s from 2015 by the way

http://answers.presonus.com/3240/articulation-editor

And it might not be implemented as I show it in that mock-up. I don’t have coding skills and my mock-up is just an idea but as far as I know the team in Hamburg is aware that a certain user base of S1 wants to see any kind of articulation switching implemented.

Regarding one articulation per track. I think when someone works that way a comfortable way managing the amount of tracks is needed as well. I think cubase has a big advantage when it comes to visibility management. Another benefit of a single articulation per track workflow is working with independent track delay settings so that your notes stay on the grid.
 
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jbuhler

Senior Member
Now, S1 just ate all the CC data for expression from every instrument in this piece. I've never seen anything like it.
Just figured it out. In the original video, the issue is that Control 21 is active on one track and not the other. Whenever switching to the track that doesnt have control 21 active/in use, it defaults back to velocity. It might be better if it just kept the control 21 view open even on tracks that aren't using it, but it doesnt seem like its a bug, as much as its just not sure what to do when the channel is not present on the track you're switching to. Looking at the situation I was able to recreate the problem for usability, its likely that because its only maintaining the state from instance to instance, rather than locking the view for each track, when after it defaults to velocity, when you switch back to the track with Control 21, it stays on velocity, and does not switch back to control 21 view.
Yes, it’s true if I don’t have the automation lane open on an instrument that I get the behavior. My understanding from those on here though was the instruments were supposed to retain the state of the automation lanes last used in editing the instrument. That is evidently not the case...

The second thing is that some of my Spitfire instruments (especially those using the Spitfire sample player) evidently don’t use the regular MIDI CCs. In any case the parameters available in the automation lane chooser are different and “expression” for the Spitfire player is not the same as “expression” for most instruments. The upshot is that it is impossible to get the set of automation lanes under the music editor to be the same for, say, Spitfire Chamber Strings and Hans Zimmer Strings. This means that when I move from one to the other the automation configuration is always broken with S1 returning to something like a default state (generally but not always showing velocity or modulation in all lanes except modulation). In any case it just doesn’t work for that combination of instruments.

Now the problem if you are working on a large template like an orchestra piece is that every instrument has to be able to be configured the same with the automation lanes if the automation configuration is going to be retained. If any instrument can’t do this you are kind of screwed and condemned to having to reset the automation any time you jump to an instrument that can’t be configured in that fashion. This does not make for efficient work and it’s one way the editing and programming of MIDI remains a chore in S1. The program still has a long way to go...

I’ll add one cautionary tale, and that is as I was working last night at some point the expression data on all tracks just disappeared. (I was not able to reproduce the problem so I don’t know what happened.) In any case I was able to go back to a fairly recent version and recover it but that kind of bug is worrisome, and good thing I wasn’t working on deadline. Related, when I went to restore an earlier version S1 hung on closing the previous project (as it often does for any project contains a Kontakt instance—a king standing bug that I’ve reported to support and Presonus hasn’t deemed important enough to fix). It took several attempts to restore because S1 could not close the current project to open a previous one.

I love much about S1 and it’s workflow generally suits me better than Logic but the issues I’ve had the past couple of days as I’ve been working intensely with it remind me why I always end up going back to Logic for big projects involving lots of VIs.

One final question. Is there a way to open the automation envelopes created under the music editor as automation tracks in the main window. Whenever I open the automation parameter in the main window the automation envelope created in the music editor does not show up so I can’t figure out how to edit it there.
 
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