Studio One users, how do you find S1 for big orchestral projects?

maestro2be

Active Member
How do you have kontakt configured. Do you have multithreaded option turned on in Kontakt by any chance? It probably should not be.
I have multithread turned off for the instances that run directly inside Studio One, and Multithread turned on in VE Pro. I freeze/lockup with either one. I should add, it only happens when closing a project.
 

maestro2be

Active Member
It is known that PreSonus / Studio One does not fix bugs and incompatibilities (like not conforming to the VST specification) in 3rd party software (plugins)... what Cubase and Logic have done several times in the past.

If a plugin behaves better in one certain DAW it doesn't mean it's Studio One's fault.

But in the case of Kontakt my guess is the system. I haven't ever had any problems with Kontakt in Studio One. I had problems with Arturia plugins, Waves plugins, Spectrasonics plugins. But not Kontakt (and Kontakt is an instrument which is in each of my songs).
On the exact same hardware I can use Cubase and never freeze or crash. To me, that strongly suggests it's a Studio One issue, even if it is some type of compatibility to my system. Oh, and it happens on the VE Pro server as well which is totally different hardware. Anytime I host Kontakt inside or outside in VE Pro it will hang forever or crash on closing a project. Presonus has not ever been able to solve it. VSL has never been able to solve it (tickets with both companies). I just make sure to save my VE Pro instances before closing a project so I never lose my work after the close crash that will happen.
 
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jbuhler

Senior Member
Another thing that militates against using S1 for large orchestral projects: it's hard to move midi between files. Or at least the manual and lots of searching on Google doesn't show me how to do insert a chunk of music from one project into another.

Say I have 16 measures of fully orchestrated music in a S1 sketch pad in one file and want to move that section to another file to integrate it into a different piece that is say already 125 measures long. How do I insert those 16 measures at measure 126 of the new file?

I've tried exporting midi and then importing it, but S1 insists on opening the midi in a new file rather than the file I dragged it to. (Why the developers thought this was the kind of behavior anyone would want is anyone's guess.) I've tried using import song data, but that seems to import only starting at measure 1 even if you already have music there. Is there a solution to this? Googling around suggests this is long standing issue. But maybe you just have to know the trick.

The only solution I've found is to import the midi, instrument by instrument.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
Another thing that militates against using S1 for large orchestral projects: it's hard to move midi between files. Or at least the manual and lots of searching on Google doesn't show me how to do insert a chunk of music from one project into another.

Say I have 16 measures of fully orchestrated music in a S1 sketch pad in one file and want to move that section to another file to integrate it into a different piece that is say already 125 measures long. How do I insert those 16 measures at measure 126 of the new file?

I've tried exporting midi and then importing it, but S1 insists on opening the midi in a new file rather than the file I dragged it to. (Why the developers thought this was the kind of behavior anyone would want is anyone's guess.) I've tried using import song data, but that seems to import only starting at measure 1 even if you already have music there. Is there a solution to this? Googling around suggests this is long standing issue. But maybe you just have to know the trick.

The only solution I've found is to import the midi, instrument by instrument.

this was actually a benefit i was going to mention,. Export the section you want as a musicloop. it would require you to cut those 16 measures temporarily to export the loop, but you can undo it after the export. Export will generate one musicloop per track. Just through those music loops into the new project wherever you want.

This is one feature that makes S1 best for me as I collaborate on projects with other writers and exporting a musicloop is a gem. by default it saves the midi data, instrument and fx data, so when you import it, it will come into the new project just the same as it was in the last project, or if you're sharing a project with someone who has the same instruments and fx, they'll get all the information without any need for setup.

Another alternative that might work is saving your one file in versions instead of making new files, but I'm not 100% mastered on this new function.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
this was actually a benefit i was going to mention,. Export the section you want as a musicloop. it would require you to cut those 16 measures temporarily to export the loop, but you can undo it after the export. Export will generate one musicloop per track. Just through those music loops into the new project wherever you want.

This is one feature that makes S1 best for me as I collaborate on projects with other writers and exporting a musicloop is a gem. by default it saves the midi data, instrument and fx data, so when you import it, it will come into the new project just the same as it was in the last project, or if you're sharing a project with someone who has the same instruments and fx, they'll get all the information without any need for setup.
That's helpful and better than the other solutions I've tried but it still has a couple problems, or I'm doing it wrong. First thing is that the music loop saves the instrument along with the midi. It's not a big deal to delete the instrument, but it does involve additional steps and when I'm running close to the memory capacities of the machine, I don't need to accidentally load a 1.2 GB instrument (or a Kontakt multi that is even larger). Oddly when I just did this, 3 of the 8 created new tracks and imported the instrument whereas the other 5 just went to the track. I don't know what the difference was. Second, the loops do not export with useful names. Instead I get test, test (2), test (3), test (4), etc. rather than something useful like the original track names: test (violin 1), test (cello), test (oboe), test (trumpet), etc. Another advantage of the music loops are that you do get an audio render of each of the tracks to preview (so that helps), it retains the tempo information, and each of the midi files is cut to the same length to ensure they conform (which is not the case if you use the midi data from import song data).

I did discover that I can create the requisite number of empty instruments in the current file, then go to the original file, copy it, and then paste the midi into the empty instruments, and then move the midi to correct places from there, and then delete the instruments. If the two files use the same template, then you can just do a direct copy paste. I don't think that method retains tempo information, however. (S1 also works much, much better with multiple files open than does Logic.)

Another alternative that might work is saving your one file in versions instead of making new files, but I'm not 100% mastered on this new function.
I already make extensive use of versions and sketchpads, both of which are helpful in large projects if you are trying to do it all in one file. But things do get unwieldy. The problem I was trying to solve today involved trying to port between two versions of the project—though they had different templates because I used the first to sketch and then rebuilt but at some point I went back to work on this one chunk in a sketchpad. In any case, I found it no easier to do it from an earlier non-conforming version than from a completely different file.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
That's helpful and better than the other solutions I've tried but it still has a couple problems, or I'm doing it wrong. First thing is that the music loop saves the instrument along with the midi. It's not a big deal to delete the instrument, but it does involve additional steps and when I'm running close to the memory capacities of the machine, I don't need to accidentally load a 1.2 GB instrument (or a Kontakt multi that is even larger). Oddly when I just did this, 3 of the 8 created new tracks and imported the instrument whereas the other 5 just went to the track. I don't know what the difference was. Second, the loops do not export with useful names. Instead I get test, test (2), test (3), test (4), etc. rather than something useful like the original track names: test (violin 1), test (cello), test (oboe), test (trumpet), etc. Another advantage of the music loops are that you do get an audio render of each of the tracks to preview (so that helps), it retains the tempo information, and each of the midi files is cut to the same length to ensure they conform (which is not the case if you use the midi data from import song data).

I did discover that I can create the requisite number of empty instruments in the current file, then go to the original file, copy it, and then paste the midi into the empty instruments, and then move the midi to correct places from there, and then delete the instruments. If the two files use the same template, then you can just do a direct copy paste. I don't think that method retains tempo information, however. (S1 also works much, much better with multiple files open than does Logic.)


I already make extensive use of versions and sketchpads, both of which are helpful in large projects if you are trying to do it all in one file. But things do get unwieldy. The problem I was trying to solve today involved trying to port between two versions of the project—though they had different templates because I used the first to sketch and then rebuilt but at some point I went back to work on this one chunk in a sketchpad. In any case, I found it no easier to do it from an earlier non-conforming version than from a completely different file.
I just tried another test of the musicloops and it seems like its actually pretty intuitive. If you load the musicloop into an empty space in the project, it will load up the entire track and instruments. If you just drag the musicloop into the space where you want it on a preexisting track, it will only insert the midi. Or as i believe you noted, if you load it into an audio track, it will load the wav file with midi and instrument data embedded. I wish there was a better option for naming the files. generally when I can, i just merge the events from the track into one event, and export that, but sometimes that might not be possible. perhaps its best to just export track by track is so you can at least name them relative to the track/instrument they represent.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
I just tried another test of the musicloops and it seems like its actually pretty intuitive. If you load the musicloop into an empty space in the project, it will load up the entire track and instruments. If you just drag the musicloop into the space where you want it on a preexisting track, it will only insert the midi. Or as i believe you noted, if you load it into an audio track, it will load the wav file with midi and instrument data embedded. I wish there was a better option for naming the files. generally when I can, i just merge the events from the track into one event, and export that, but sometimes that might not be possible. perhaps its best to just export track by track is so you can at least name them relative to the track/instrument they represent.
That's not quite it either, as the three loops that opened new instruments were all dropped onto instrument tracks just like the five that didn't open new instrument tracks. I guess S1 just decided that I really wanted to open those three loops with the original instrument.

I didn't try the audio track, but that's a neat feature. I was referring to the file browser, where you can audition the midi musicloops before you insert them.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
That's not quite it either, as the three loops that opened new instruments were all dropped onto instrument tracks just like the five that didn't open new instrument tracks. I guess S1 just decided that I really wanted to open those three loops with the original instrument.

I didn't try the audio track, but that's a neat feature. I was referring to the file browser, where you can audition the midi musicloops before you insert them.
That’s odd. I was able to just drag the loop right into the track (it even shows the midi event immediately on the track). Perhaps an instrument needs to be loaded on the track first. That or maybe you have to do it one music loop at a time.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
That’s odd. I was able to just drag the loop right into the track (it even shows the midi event immediately on the track). Perhaps an instrument needs to be loaded on the track first. That or maybe you have to do it one music loop at a time.
The tracks had instruments loaded, so that's not it either. In those three instances, S1 inserted a new track right above the track where I'd placed it.

I wonder it's some kind of version issue. That is, some of the tracks had been created quite a long time ago, maybe 3-4 years ago, whereas others had been created yesterday. And the three tracks that S1 rejected and created new tracks for had all been created yesterday. The only problem with that theory is that one track that had been created yesterday did allow me to put the midi on it.
 

samphony

Senior Member
That's helpful and better than the other solutions I've tried but it still has a couple problems, or I'm doing it wrong. First thing is that the music loop saves the instrument along with the midi. It's not a big deal to delete the instrument, but it does involve additional steps and when I'm running close to the memory capacities of the machine, I don't need to accidentally load a 1.2 GB instrument (or a Kontakt multi that is even larger). Oddly when I just did this, 3 of the 8 created new tracks and imported the instrument whereas the other 5 just went to the track. I don't know what the difference was. Second, the loops do not export with useful names. Instead I get test, test (2), test (3), test (4), etc. rather than something useful like the original track names: test (violin 1), test (cello), test (oboe), test (trumpet), etc. Another advantage of the music loops are that you do get an audio render of each of the tracks to preview (so that helps), it retains the tempo information, and each of the midi files is cut to the same length to ensure they conform (which is not the case if you use the midi data from import song data).

I did discover that I can create the requisite number of empty instruments in the current file, then go to the original file, copy it, and then paste the midi into the empty instruments, and then move the midi to correct places from there, and then delete the instruments. If the two files use the same template, then you can just do a direct copy paste. I don't think that method retains tempo information, however. (S1 also works much, much better with multiple files open than does Logic.)


I already make extensive use of versions and sketchpads, both of which are helpful in large projects if you are trying to do it all in one file. But things do get unwieldy. The problem I was trying to solve today involved trying to port between two versions of the project—though they had different templates because I used the first to sketch and then rebuilt but at some point I went back to work on this one chunk in a sketchpad. In any case, I found it no easier to do it from an earlier non-conforming version than from a completely different file.
Why don’t you just copy paste the music events between songs?
 

samphony

Senior Member
By the way if you drag a music event into the browser it offers to either save it as musicloop or if you hit option/alt once it offers to save it as midi file. Either way it saves with the name taken from the event. You can also secondary click on the file in the browser and rename it.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
By the way if you drag a music event into the browser it offers to either save it as musicloop or if you hit option/alt once it offers to save it as midi file. Either way it saves with the name taken from the event. You can also secondary click on the file in the browser and rename it.
Lol I’ve used this function and I always manage forget it’s there as an option.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
Why don’t you just copy paste the music events between songs?
Because pasting a track at a time in a pain and if I do multiple regions then I have to create empty tracks to receive them since the templates don't conform with each other. Also both files have large templates, so I have to be careful about total system memory. Exporting the midi and then importing it into the next file avoids that issue.
Why so complicated ;) If you just want the MIDI from the musicloop, just collapse it and drag the musicx/MIDI or the FLAC (audio) into your song.
That's fine if your loop is only a couple of bits. But say instead the sixteen measures you want involves eighty instrument tracks and many of those tracks consists of multiple midi regions. Then this solution isn't so neat because the .musicloop output is Name (incremental number) for each part, and for my loop I now have, say part files ranging from Name to Name (100) that I have to properly put into place to reconstruct the passage. So in order to reproduce a passage in a new song I have to either take a screen shot of the original configuration and follow that to reconstruct or do something like my current solution:
  1. create midi regions that span the full extent of the passage I want to copy for each instrument used. (Is there a command to group disparate midi on a track into a single region that spans the length of a loop?)
  2. export the loop into an appropriately titled folder
  3. rename each loop according to the instrument name of the track (is there a way in MacOS to automate renaming large numbers of file if I have, say, a text file of names in the order of the tracks as I want them? So if I have a CSV file that runs something like "piccolo, solo flute, solo flute legato, flutes a2, solo oboe, solo oboe legato, oboes a2..." and a set of .musicloops that corresponds to it like "part.musicloop, part (2).musicloop, part (3).musicloop, part (4).musicloop..." so that part.musicloop would become piccolo.musicloop, part (2).musicloop would solo flute.musicloop, part (3).musicloop would become solo flute legato.musicloop, etc.)
  4. (optional) in the destination song create a new sketchpad, set the loop indicators to the length of the imported loop, and create a label for the loop in the arranger track. (You can also do something like this at the insertion point in the main song.)
  5. use the browser (like @Lukas shows above) to import each musicloop into the appropriate track in the sketchpad or at the insertion point.
If I could find a way through a script to automate the consolidation and conformance of the midi regions for step 1, the renaming of step 3, and the extraction track names used in the musicloop into a CSV file (required to automate renaming) that would make this a pretty efficient workflow. Is there a bulk renaming script available to handle this kind of thing?
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
Here's a useful behavior that I stumbled across if you use lots of scratchpads. In the Mac version at least, if you put your cursor on top of the scratchpad selector, you can use the track pad or scrolling capacities of your mouse to quickly navigate among the various scratchpads without having to open up the menu.
 

samphony

Senior Member
Of course copy paste of events doesn’t include tracks and routing yet. A behavior that needs to be implemented in a future version in my opinion.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
ok, here's a dumb question about S1. Sometimes when I click on a track in the arranger window—especially when clicking to expand a folder for whatever reason—S1 will randomly recolor the track without the color window ever appearing. Any idea what is going on or more importantly how to lock the colors once they are set so I don't inadvertently reset them? I seem to do this a couple of times a day.
 

ThomasL

Senior Member
ok, here's a dumb question about S1. Sometimes when I click on a track in the arranger window—especially when clicking to expand a folder for whatever reason—S1 will randomly recolor the track without the color window ever appearing. Any idea what is going on or more importantly how to lock the colors once they are set so I don't inadvertently reset them? I seem to do this a couple of times a day.
If you by accident scroll with your scroll wheel while hovering over the color bar you will scroll through the colors.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
Another thing to consider in working with large templates: for me, S1 has more trouble with Kontakt streaming from disk than does Logic. On this project I have to run S1 at 1024 samples and dfd buffer in Kontakt at 60kb to avoid frequent pops and clicks when playing back in S1. In Logic, I run at 512 samples and dfd of 24 buffer at 24kb for a similar sized project with no problems at all. I don't really know why S1 would have so much more trouble with Kontakt streaming from disk. But the problem was bad enough that I had to change to 1024 samples to make playback tolerable.

I use Kontakt multis in S1 and an instance per track in Logic. I wonder if that might be part of the issue, presuming that all multis are processed by the same core, so the string multi for instance gets a lot of work. The other difference is I use the VST version of Kontakt in S1 rather than the AU.