It did not serve the discussion. Honestly, I think it's highly insulting to take that tone with a customer. When I find a flaw in a product I paid hundreds of dollars for I don't want someone telling that I'm using the product incorrectly. I'd rather them just be honest and tell me that no sample library is perfect just by the nature of it being what it is. Or make an attempt to fix it. It's a big turn off.At least it was a comment that served the discussion. This is even less helpful.
I'd love to hear how my comment was insulting. (And it's not "give me..." but "give 'em..." as in: ffs)My personal view on this is that I disagree, which at this point referring to your statement has very little to do with the library we are talking about. I could come up with multiple ways why your own comment is insulting but I won't go that road. You'll have to look for someone else to give you that rope.
Gladly we are all still free to disagree and we were both able to convey our opinions, just as anyone else should be able to.
I agree. All I'm trying to say is if we allow people to express their opinion in ways that could also be understood as defamation, we need to also allow the other side to be less office-template-answer towards it. At least that's my opinion. And it's what it is. An opinion. Just as Paul has one and re-peat has one. None of the words written in here can truly allow themselves to be valid for everyone, no matter who wrote them. Not unless there are also people who like the products. And there are. That doesn't mean problems don't exist.... I think you get that I'm only trying to go a more grey than black/white route.Fair enough. I agree to the extent that there is a conflict of interest between a developer posting as the voice of a business or their own personal view. And yes, a public forum is not customer support. But when the marketing of products crosses over into what appears to be the personal voice it can be confusing at best and disingenuous at worst. And when the developer's customer support and/or quality control is lacking, I think voicing a reasonable grievance in public is a pretty normal thing to do.
(You keep editing your posts..)I think it's just unfair to take away his right to express his own personal opinion and to then make a rather passive aggressive comment about "y u waste time with internet, go fix product"
Maybe he will? Maybe he won't? Whatever it will be we can then make up our mind about it.(You keep editing your posts..)
This is a little upside down here. Guy also took the time to post his own example (which sounded pretty great to me). It would say a lot to other potential customers if he addressed the flaws that dude found before going into marketing mode. Buy hey, whatever...
Oh...you're new here. That's fine. And agree with what you're saying for the most part. But these guys have done this dance before. You should search some older posts if you haven't already.At least we are in a community...
Right, "for the price.." As you know, the cost of sample libraries has dropped to maybe 10-20%(?) of what they were 15 years ago (not counting the vsl cube). The market is different. Therein lies the rub I think.I still stand by my statement that for the price tag you get a lot out of these products which only some years ago wouldn't have been the case with regard to the features/quality/whatnot.
Piet's got e̶x̶c̶e̶l̶l̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶s̶*, he's just being boorish about it. Like calling the Spitfire Studio Woodwinds oboe — "surely, the worst-sounding, most useless Oboeoïd in the history of human civilization". That's just being a jerk.I think voicing a reasonable grievance in public is a pretty normal thing to do.
That's the criticism of someone who spends a lot of time and energy wrangling samples. Granted, not the nicest way to say that.Piet's got excellent points, he's just being boorish about it. Like calling the Spitfire Studio Woodwinds oboe — "surely, the worst-sounding, most useless Oboeoïd in the history of human civilization". That's just being a jerk.
Imagine if you were on a project and someone gave you that note--that your work was the worst, most useless in the history of civilization--how would you take that?
Paul,I'm not going to get drawn into creating more little demos to counter what Piet is saying here, as I did before. I'll simply observe that its actually pretty easy to make any sample library sound bad. You find an element that you can expose, say thats quickly moving the modwheel between certain values, and then you just ride that to make it sound as bad as possible. This is clear in the screenshot posted what is going on.
I own quite a few of the other devs libraries for my own interest - theres great stuff in all of them. However I could easily make some examples of them sounding awful. Why would I do that though? It would be incredibly unfair and unrepresentative, and I have a lot of respect for any dev who goes through the incredible amount of hard work to get a product of such complexity across the finish line.
Its a fact that Christian and I are massively involved in the creation of our products. Its a fact that they come out - thanks to a large team of very talented programmers and QA who are all also musicians - with way fewer bugs than they used to when we were a handful of people. We're always aiming of course for zero, but its complex software, and anyone involved in this knows how hard it is to catch everything. We still put out tons of updates and constantly work to improve our products.
Its a shame that so many devs have left VIC. I loved this place before I was a dev, I still enjoy coming here and following whats going on, but its so hard reading stuff presented as fact that is either unfair or simply untrue. I actually spent a week editing and refining stuff for the Ambient Guitars release only a few weeks ago. And yes - I'm not doing this *most* of the time, as I have a ton of other responsibilities, but I still get my hands dirty in all kinds of ways. I love making samples as much as I love making music. I'm not sitting in the clubhouse on the 19th hole drinking gin and tonic.
A key point - I'm still a totally passionate end user of our products, as is Christian. Thats how we started, and thats how it still is. We have really talented people working with us who have undoubtedly helped us up our game across the board.
There is a cognitive dissonance though when you on the one hand get fantastic feedback from triple A list record producers and composers, through to students and keen hobbyists who purely write for pleasure - and then you read that your products are 'absolute utter crap' - believe me I could take the King James cello and make it sound crap. Doesn't mean that the lucky cellist who currently plays it can't make it sound utterly divine!
I'm also absolutely passionate about music education and opportunity for people of all ages to discover music, performing and composing, and so I spend some of my time on that side at the moment.
Not really sure what I hope to achieve by posting this message, probably nothing. I have no desire to muzzle anyone. People have different tastes, and will like the sound of different things, I have absolutely no issue with that. I struggle with misrepresentation and confident announcements of 'fact' that bear no relation to reality.
One thing is for sure. When someone uses one of our products, they are using something that has been lovingly nursed into existence with care and attention and a ton of work by a team of really talented people who work hard to make the products as good as they can. We often bin stuff that isn't up to our standards. We also have a fantastic and dedicated support team that you can communicate with who are a key part of us refining and making our products better, so please do talk with them. It really helps us, which helps you.
I joined VI-C in October 2005. Thats nearly 14 years ago! nuts. Still can't quite manage to tear myself away - and why should I have to? Theres a lot to love about a community of passionate music makers who are also massive geeks like me. I just need to learn the skill of selective reading
I do think that Studio Brass Pro offers a good complement to SSB in terms of content, covering instruments and articulations that are lacking in the latter. I don't yet know if they will mix effectively.Regarding the studio brass pro, I have reached a conclusion of sorts: I'm sure I can make good use of studio brass but it's also pretty clear that is not a little brother of the symphonic brass. I had erroneously thought of the studio brass as a smaller and drier version of the symphonic series, but that is not really what it is. I'll have to look at the symphonic brass next time.
After another hour or two of experimentation, I'm actually pretty pleased. I am inserting a Spaces II Renolds hall and dialing back the reverb signal to ca -8 to -12 db and both studio brass and studio ww mix nicely with everything else I have. The Studio Brass sounds wonderfully rich when run through the Berlin Church B, but it's a bit too "churchy" so I switched to a concert hall for my template.I do think that Studio Brass Pro offers a good complement to SSB in terms of content, covering instruments and articulations that are lacking in the latter. I don't yet know if they will mix effectively.
I don't have Spaces. I fiddled with a few reverbs I do have, and haven't yet found a setting that gets into the ballpark of Lyndhurst Hall. Yes, a few of the concert hall reverbs I've tried out sound very nice with the library on its own.After another hour or two of experimentation, I'm actually pretty pleased. I am inserting a Spaces II Renolds hall and dialing back the reverb signal to ca -8 to -12 db and both studio brass and studio ww mix nicely with everything else I have. The Studio Brass sounds wonderfully rich when run through the Berlin Church B, but it's a bit too "churchy" so I switched to a concert hall for my template.