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Spitfire Studio Brass

Karl Feuerstake

Active Member
So all the developers that record the legato in louder dynamics got it all wrong? You don't have to use it on every note, but it sure is useful to have. Biggest problem I am having with this library is that the legato sounds like it was only recorded at single dynamic and that is not realistic at all.

-Hannes
they record it between two notes in under 2 seconds, then repeat, and allow you to play whatever you want to your hearts content.
 

Lcas

New Member
I have core and pro sitting in my wishlist, so many options out there but for $120/240 I don't think I can resist.

Need a workhorse brass library. Really want ability for low dynamics melodic writing. Loud stuff great and needed as well, but I can live without for now.

I like the sound of the strings in this room but the brass sounds thin. Not opposed to grabbing pro but need to squeeze as much as I can out of my budget considering I'm a beginner and I really like Bernard Hermann toolkit at $300.

Anyways, since core is tree mic only, would you throw reverb(s) onto the tree mic, to make it sound bigger, or would that be a bad idea? I am guessing that is close mic only stuff but obviously have no experience with this.

I feel like I would sit here regretting not getting pro, until Christmas, but if anyone here can shed some light on using reverb on the tree mic I might just get core
 

re-peat

Senior Member
Lcas, I can make you an audio example of some of the SStB instruments with added reverb, if you like.
What kind of reverb would you like to hear? Big-ish, big or very big?
(And which reverb do you plan on using? Maybe I have it too.)

_
 

Jeremy Johns

New Member
I think I misunderstood the studio series, I thought dryness was one of the main draws but looks like only the pro version has the dry samples, the tree in the core version seems quite wet.
 

Wolfie2112

Senior Member
I have core and pro sitting in my wishlist, so many options out there but for $120/240 I don't think I can resist.

Need a workhorse brass library. Really want ability for low dynamics melodic writing. Loud stuff great and needed as well, but I can live without for now.

I like the sound of the strings in this room but the brass sounds thin. Not opposed to grabbing pro but need to squeeze as much as I can out of my budget considering I'm a beginner and I really like Bernard Hermann toolkit at $300.

Anyways, since core is tree mic only, would you throw reverb(s) onto the tree mic, to make it sound bigger, or would that be a bad idea? I am guessing that is close mic only stuff but obviously have no experience with this.

I feel like I would sit here regretting not getting pro, until Christmas, but if anyone here can shed some light on using reverb on the tree mic I might just get core
Why couldn’t you add reverb? There are no rules. In one of the videos, Christian even throws a reverb AND delay on a horn section....it sounds awesome! I bought the Studio Core version, the price is incredible.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
I picked up Studio Brass Pro as a complement to SSB. So far they seem a good match in terms of being complements—Studio Brass has a lot of muted articulations, which are generally lacking in SSB—but I haven't yet tried to mix them together in a big orchestral setting.

In general, Studio Brass is much brassier at the higher dynamic layers and this is both positive and negative, depending on what you are trying to do. Sustains (regular longs) are often rather lifeless and don't have a real pianissimo, hardly even a p (and certainly not that lovely velvety tone you can get from very soft brass), and because it turns brassy as you push the modwheel, it's hard to dial life into the sustained chords. The legatos are a bit better because they give the modwheel more range to work with before turning overly brassy. I find the solo horn 1 legato patch to be just weird and very uncharacteristic. I knew this patch was a bit suspect from the walkthroughs, but playing with it—yowsa.

Overall, I'm pleased with Studio Brass Pro as a complement to SSB but I am happy that I have SSB as my main brass library. My initial impression is that I'd encounter quite a lot more limitations working regularly with Studio Brass compared to SSB. (I like the big hall sound in SSB, which you really hear when you listen to SSB side by side with Studio Brass, so that's not an issue for me.)
 

Lcas

New Member
Lcas, I can make you an audio example of some of the SStB instruments with added reverb, if you like.
What kind of reverb would you like to hear? Big-ish, big or very big?
(And which reverb do you plan on using? Maybe I have it too.)

_
Thanks a lot, as big as you think is sensible. Whatever you think the limit is, to push the size where it can go. I have audiority xenoverb for algorithmic, and the stuff in KONTAKT 6 I played around with for convolution before, and it seems fine for me.

Why couldn’t you add reverb? There are no rules. In one of the videos, Christian even throws a reverb AND delay on a horn section....it sounds awesome! I bought the Studio Core version, the price is incredible.
OK cool, I was assuming that having reverb on something with a little room or tail built-in, would result in weirdness, and doing the same to something dry-er like the close mic would sound right.

I'm starting to feel like I am fine with core because even if it isn't exactly what I want right away it's more than good for me. If I want pro I can just relax until Christmas while I get to know it, and music in general, better.
 

re-peat

Senior Member
None of you has a problem with this trumpet? That's Trumpet 1 Legato controlled with the modwheel. (To verify that I didn't do anything outrageous with the modwheel, check the image below. You'll see that it never even reaches value 100. But there's this terrible transition somewhere around value 70-75 where layers cross-fade, things phase awfully and the instrument sounds filtered in the worst possibe way. And when the modwheel goes down just a tiny little bit (around value 60-69) that phasing, piercing ugliness suddenly disappears and we're back to a more normal but dynamically incorrect sound. Totally unplayable, this thing.)



And these legato transitions from Trumpet 2 (which fortunately suffers less from the problem that plagues Trumpet 1), is that something to be pleased about too?

_
 

Tice

Active Member
Ugh, that really doesn't sound right. I hope they fix it. I have their symphonic brass, quite happy with that. Got a discount on their studio brass, was thinking about it. But this makes me want to wait.
 

jbuhler

Senior Member
None of you has a problem with this trumpet? That's Trumpet 1 Legato controlled with the modwheel. (To verify that I didn't do anything outrageous with the modwheel, check the image below. You'll see that it never even reaches value 100. But there's this terrible transition somewhere around value 70-75 where layers cross-fade, things phase awfully and the instrument sounds filtered in the worst possibe way. And when the modwheel goes down just a tiny little bit (around value 60-69) that phasing, piercing ugliness suddenly disappears and we're back to a more normal but dynamically incorrect sound. Totally unplayable, this thing.)



And these legato transitions from Trumpet 2 (which fortunately suffers less from the problem that plagues Trumpet 1), is that something to be pleased about too?

_
There's enough modwheel space to play to avoid these problems both above and below the threshold on Trumpet 1. Then it's a question of getting the levels right that the instrument sounds balanced with the orchestra. I'll likely make two patches out of it to get more control. I haven't encountered those legato transitions in Trumpet 2. If I had to have that line, I'd use a different trumpet.
 

StillLife

Senior Member
I picked up Studio Brass Pro as a complement to SSB. So far they seem a good match in terms of being complements—Studio Brass has a lot of muted articulations, which are generally lacking in SSB—but I haven't yet tried to mix them together in a big orchestral setting.

In general, Studio Brass is much brassier at the higher dynamic layers and this is both positive and negative, depending on what you are trying to do. Sustains (regular longs) are often rather lifeless and don't have a real pianissimo, hardly even a p (and certainly not that lovely velvety tone you can get from very soft brass), and because it turns brassy as you push the modwheel, it's hard to dial life into the sustained chords. The legatos are a bit better because they give the modwheel more range to work with before turning overly brassy. I find the solo horn 1 legato patch to be just weird and very uncharacteristic. I knew this patch was a bit suspect from the walkthroughs, but playing with it—yowsa.

Overall, I'm pleased with Studio Brass Pro as a complement to SSB but I am happy that I have SSB as my main brass library. My initial impression is that I'd encounter quite a lot more limitations working regularly with Studio Brass compared to SSB. (I like the big hall sound in SSB, which you really hear when you listen to SSB side by side with Studio Brass, so that's not an issue for me.)
Very informative, thank you. As I like to use brass chorally, I think Studio might be not my first pack. Curious about the usefulness of SSB for my genre. What do you think? Can the SSB brass be used in indie pop/singer songwriter? I find that SCS and SSoS - also Air - fit perfectly when you pull the ezmix towards close. Would that also be the case with the brass (and SWW, for that matter...)?
 
The attack on this example is ugly and at higher dynamics it sounds phasy and harsh. Yikes.

None of you has a problem with this trumpet? That's Trumpet 1 Legato controlled with the modwheel. (To verify that I didn't do anything outrageous with the modwheel, check the image below. You'll see that it never even reaches value 100. But there's this terrible transition somewhere around value 70-75 where layers cross-fade, things phase awfully and the instrument sounds filtered in the worst possibe way. And when the modwheel goes down just a tiny little bit (around value 60-69) that phasing, piercing ugliness suddenly disappears and we're back to a more normal but dynamically incorrect sound. Totally unplayable, this thing.)



And these legato transitions from Trumpet 2 (which fortunately suffers less from the problem that plagues Trumpet 1), is that something to be pleased about too?

_
 

Lcas

New Member
None of you has a problem with this trumpet? That's Trumpet 1 Legato controlled with the modwheel. (To verify that I didn't do anything outrageous with the modwheel, check the image below. You'll see that it never even reaches value 100. But there's this terrible transition somewhere around value 70-75 where layers cross-fade, things phase awfully and the instrument sounds filtered in the worst possibe way. And when the modwheel goes down just a tiny little bit (around value 60-69) that phasing, piercing ugliness suddenly disappears and we're back to a more normal but dynamically incorrect sound. Totally unplayable, this thing.)



And these legato transitions from Trumpet 2 (which fortunately suffers less from the problem that plagues Trumpet 1), is that something to be pleased about too?

_
Thanks for the heads-up, I'll just get core and fill in the gaps later with 90s retro trumpet, descant horn, maybe Berlin Expansion A.
 

The Darris

Senior Member
None of you has a problem with this trumpet? That's Trumpet 1 Legato controlled with the modwheel. (To verify that I didn't do anything outrageous with the modwheel, check the image below. You'll see that it never even reaches value 100. But there's this terrible transition somewhere around value 70-75 where layers cross-fade, things phase awfully and the instrument sounds filtered in the worst possibe way. And when the modwheel goes down just a tiny little bit (around value 60-69) that phasing, piercing ugliness suddenly disappears and we're back to a more normal but dynamically incorrect sound. Totally unplayable, this thing.)



And these legato transitions from Trumpet 2 (which fortunately suffers less from the problem that plagues Trumpet 1), is that something to be pleased about too?

_
Yikes.

This further illustrates the complete lack of attention to detail that we've come to like from much, MUCH, older Spitfire libraries. I know you can't open the Legato patch up to peak under the hood but I'm curious to see just how bad the sample editing was in the other patches. Studio Strings was atrocious and, for the first time, I found myself contacting their product manager directly about these issues.

I just watched Christian's video about how they made Albion (the original) and he talked a lot about their passion, especially into the creative design of their libraries. All of that has disappeared into a sort of monochromatic sample factory. I'm excited that they've been able to build a company up to this level but, I fear they have drifting (if not already there) into that spot where all large sample developers end up. Just a factory wherein they pump out boring, poorly crafted, lazy products that the masses will just eat up.

Everything, in at least the last 2-3 years, that Spitfire as produced as gone down hill. Aside from their libraries being less interesting and lacking proper QA, their demos have crumbled to a bland demonstration of showing how good this library sounds as a pad or how bad the library sounds when you try to throw a good composition at it. Paul's demos for the Studio Series don't lack quality of composition but they do show how this MASSIVE collection of samples fails at rendering a good, modern sounding mock-up. The Studio Series was a 5-10 year step backwards when it comes to realism and quality.

I wish they didn't abandon the old BML series. The Symphonic Orchestra version is nice, having all of them collected into three single libraries but the original intentions behind the BML line was great. When they shifted gears to the SSO re-brand, that was when Spitfire started down that path of losing their identity that original users loved.

I'm sure you and I could lament for hours about how the BML series wasn't finished and yet they just ported it all into the SSO rebrand. It sucks because their website doesn't have the originally "promised" material for all for the original BML series and the SSO libraries only show what is available. I'm still waiting for that Solo Trombone Legato....YEARS later. That is just one patch among many others we were promised.

-C
 

re-peat

Senior Member
Lcas,

A rather quick and dirty example, I’m afraid. (Links at the bottom of this post.) Various instruments and combinations of instruments through the Seventh Heaven Amsterdam Hall; dry-wet balance more or less 50/50. A very simple set-up in which any decent reverb will do about just as well (or just as bad, depending on your point of view). If it were for real though, I would use different tools (and add a delay as well) and also spend quite a bit more time on this, but I just can't stand another minute today with these sounds, and besides, a more elaborate excercise wouldn’t be much help to you anyway since you don’t have the tools to recreate it.

In order of appearance: (1) First Horn (2) Second Horn (3) Euphonium and Cimbasso, joined halfway through by two Trombones (4) Two trumpets (5) The two Horns again, but this time staccato & marcato.

The crackling noise you hear at 0’29”, during the second horn’s appearance, that is something in the samples. You can hear more of that in this example.

(JBuhler would probably advice us to use another horn in this instance. The thing is, I can provide so much examples from all across the library, that he will eventually be forced to advice us to use a different library altogether.)

By the way, JBuhler: try an interval of a major 7th starting from the either E3 or F3. And what do you have to say about this fine legato specimen? That's also Trumpet 2.


Anyway. Lcas, here’s the wet version. And for comparison: the dry version.

_
 
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re-peat

Senior Member
There's enough modwheel space to play to avoid these problems both above and below the threshold on Trumpet 1.
No, there isn't. Besides, I'd like you to explain to us how you are going to work the modwheel in such a way that it skips over that ugly transition zone? If I need to go from 60 to 80 or higher, I have to pass through 70-75, right? Can't just hop over it with a modwheel, can I? And back down again, it's the same thing.
_
 

prodigalson

Senior Member
in a world where CSB and MSB exist, having crossfade transitions that jarring and horrendous is truly unacceptable considering Spitfire's prominence in the top strata of sample developers.
 

The Darris

Senior Member
There's enough modwheel space to play to avoid these problems both above and below the threshold on Trumpet 1. Then it's a question of getting the levels right that the instrument sounds balanced with the orchestra. I'll likely make two patches out of it to get more control. I haven't encountered those legato transitions in Trumpet 2. If I had to have that line, I'd use a different trumpet.
It's sad that we've come to point where the user defends these issues with a ridiculous work-around. Why on Earth would I want to have the same patch loaded twice just so I could use the low dynamics and the high dynamics separately. At some point, you simply just have to say, "Yeah, these issues are garbage and need to be fixed. Hello Spitfire Support, fix this shit...please."

I mean, if you feel like you weren't let down by that purchase, that's fine but don't seriously avoid the elephant in the room that is those issues. Also, you have encountered those legato transitions because they were just demonstrated to you. It's great that you haven't encountered them in your work but they exist and are very, VERY, bad. It would be really great if the users of these libraries would actually raise hell with Spitfire for releasing such a lazily put together paper weight equivalent to a hard drive.
 
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