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10Dman

New Member
I've looked for a comparison, but have not found one for orchestral music.
I'm trying to decide whether to go with Spat or Altiverb, but the decision is rather difficult.
What do you think sound best for orchestral positioning and verb?

10Dman
 

Simon Ravn

Senior Member
Two different beasts altogether, can't really be compared. I am sure someone can elaborate more than I can :) I would say get Altiverb first. It should do most for you, SPAT can "save you" in some more difficult sitautions possibly, where Altiverb isn't suitable. I would also say, you might be disappointed if you ONLY get SPAT. It is a much more complex tool, and won't get you as quick results.
 

dgburns

Leg Ahh toe / Shpeig haw too
I have Altiverb,but don't own Spat yet.

My personal thoughts on Altiverb-
Great to get the vibe of a space if that's what you're after.But it is convolution reverb and that means the results will depend on the impulses recorded.I always found altiverb to be a bit "static" in that it feels like a snapshot of a particular space,not the actual space itself.The space itself would always sound more alive and moving if one were to record mic's in the room.However,it can be ok depending on the situation.In the case of orchestral midi mockups,there was a time it was my go to,especially to go from stereo to quad,but I was only using scoring stages and even then,you had to be careful of the room nodes introduced with the way the impulses were recorded.I had success using the Todd AO and especially the 20th Century Fox stage,which became my favourite as the room nodes were a bit more even (at least to my ears).I never did much panning,preferring to throw up the altiverb on the subs with a blend of dry mostly in front and the rear being mostly the Altiverb rear mic's.
By the by,the Teldex room is quite good as well.I just preferred the US scoring stages myself.

Since all that(which was a few years back) I've been going more stereo these days (and I guess I'm in good company with the likes of Harry Gregson-Williams seemingly doing the same during the writing process).As a result I've actually gone to using Valhalla room as the basic tail verb across the board.I would maybe prefer the B2,but it takes up more cpu's and I don't feel the darker sound is working for me these days.I do use B2 on solo things like very long lexi type wash for flutes,or anything actually played.B2 in surround with Spat like positioning would be a thing to marvel at if it were to be conceived and available.

As for Spat-the thing is I wish it adopted the same gui as MIR from Vienna.That would be my ultimate goal.Spat won't colour the sound like Altiverb will,imho,but I think that's actually it's strength.It can take a source and move it back into the room in a way I have not been able to find with anything else.The dilemma of recording spot instruments and placing them into a larger sound source,such as the sound of many libs out there is tricky at best.Spat is magical for taking a mono source and making it 5_1.I have not found anything else that can do it quite like Spat.Setting up Spat as your main verb is going to take some head scratching,but it can be done.What I like best about Spat is that it does spacial positioning as well as ambient generating.And the results (in capable hands) is simply stunning.But you have to do your due diligence and learn the thing through and through.

Only reason I don't own Spat yet is because I'm on an assignment that does not call for it's use.I missed the chance to buy it at 500,so will likely pull the trigger when it comes up for sale,if it ever does.

Obviously MIR is the other elephant in the room.While I was auditioning Spat,I tried Mir as well.While it was superior for me to Altiverb,I felt the convo verb issue was also the issue here.I've read others talk about the convo vs algo issue,and it seems we all come to the same conclusion that algo verbs create more movement and are generally brighter sounding then convo,which will create the sense of space,but doesn't have that bloom and movement algo verb will bring.

As a final thought,while all this is personal,there is also the fact that my personal taste and esthetic these days is to go for more fidelity.I find myself wanting to have fidelity and clarity across the board,and convo verbs seem to cloud the sound up for me.I'd rather leave the spot mic up and put an algo tail on it then try and convince the listeners that the music was actually recorded somewhere it wasn't.I also am recording these days with a cedar dns2000 prior to input to act as a sort of room remover of sorts,which helps me get a drier sound going in.
 
There are others here that have more experience with it, but I recently purchased Eareverb2 and it has a very good sound, and also has nice positioning options.

You can demo it obviously. So to give you another option....
 

re-peat

Senior Member
As much as I like Altiverb, the choice is glaringly obvious, I’d say: SPAT. Every mixing hour of the day, every day of the week.

In short: SPAT is endlessly more versatile than anything else and also sounds better — and I mean: the sonic integrity of SPAT’s output — than just about everything else. Its only major short-coming is the fact that, in most DAW’s, it’s quite difficult to make SPAT process several sources simultaneously (due to some routing inflexibilities in the combination DAW-SPAT).
But for single source processing, nothing even begins to comes close offering all that is possible with SPAT.

SPAT may look a complex, sophisticated beast at first, with a seemingly infinite number of enigmatic parameters, yes, but for our purposes — placing and positioning virtual instruments in a mix — you actualy only need to know about a surprisingly small handful of these parameters, no more anyway than the number of parameters you’re expected to know about when working with any other reverb/spatializer.

(A good understanding of) seven or so parameters gets you more than started, and then add, say, another ten or fifteen if you want to be fully equal to any spatializing challenge that a mock-up might ever present you with.

Also keep in mind that spatializing — good-sounding, mix- and music-aware spatializing, I mean — is a fairly complex affair to begin with, so a certain degree of commitment and a willingness-to-learn on the part of the user is always going to be requirement. And that’s not just the case with SPAT. Good use of Altiverb, or MIR, or whatever, can also only happen after quite a bit of studying the software and a thorough understanding of everything needs to be considered if you want to be able to spatialize virtual instruments convincingly.)

I’ve done a few SPAT-videos, going over all its important parameters and showing a few different techniques, using source sounds from Sample Modeling, VSL and LASS.
Here’s one of those videos, a "quick glance" type-of-thing which uses an anechoic flute recording to explain some of the SPAT-basics with. (The opening screen indicates where the other videos can be found.)

_
 

tack

Damned Dirty Ape
As a result I've actually gone to using Valhalla room as the basic tail verb across the board.
Bear in mind ValhallaRoom produces early energy (a term they use instead of "early reflections"). This is unsurprising, because it's a room/space simulator. I also used to use VR as my reverb glue until I found it was doing unwanted things to instruments with harsh attacks (I noticed on a glock), even with the early parameters dialed back as far as they would go.

Given that most of my instruments already have early reflections in the samples, I've since switched to ValhallaPlate as my glue reverb and I really recommend it. It's very smooth and pleasing for a subtle glue layer and to extend tails where needed. VR was just getting in the way too much for that.
 

Ashermusic

Senior Member
I still believe that Altiverb is more inherently muddy than some other convolution reverbs. I think all the control it gives you comes at some sonic cost.
 

wbacer

A Work in Progress
Piet, thank you for creating and sharing your first three SPAT videos, Excellent. As SPAT tutorials are pretty nonexistent, I really appreciate your work.
You had indicated back in August that a fourth video was on it's way. Did you ever get a chance to put that together? If so, where can we find it?
 

Den*

New Member
Well, after 50 shades of grey there is 30 shades of reverb. Maybe this video can help..


I must admit Aether still holding it's place.

Reverbs in order of appearance
01:07 Dry
02:46 Valhalla Plate
04:30 Valhalla VintageVerb
06:26 Valhalla Room
07:55 PSP 2445
09:36 Waves H-Reverb
11:20 Acon Verberate
13:02 IK TR CSR Hall
14:43 Nomad Factory BlueVerb
16:30 P&M Digital Reverb
18:12 SKnote Rev250
19:53 KR Reverb TS
21:35 AudioThing Fog Convolver
23:18 Agean Music Spirit Reverb
24:59 OverLoud Spring Age
26:42 Waves IR-L
28:24 Softube TSAR-1
29:58 2caudio Aether
31:36 2caudio Breeze
33:18 2caudio B2
35:00 Eventide UltraReverb
36:40 UVI Sparkverb
38:25 D16 Toraverb
40:05 Melda MMultiReverb
41:48 U-he UBHIK-A
43:30 SKNote Stagespace
45:05 OverLoud RVB500
46:50 Klevgrand R0Verb
48:30 Logic Space Designer
50:10 Waves TrueVerb
51:55 Flux IRCAM Spat
 
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FriFlo

Senior Member
The thing is: by listening to a bunch of different tracks run though some reverbs, you cannot really make your decision which reverb works for you and which doesn't. You will have to really work with it on your mixes and libraries to figure it out. I'd say there is not a huge difference on what reverb you are using with mostly ambient libraries. Once you use lots of dry libraries, it has more impact and tools like spat or Mir become really great for positioning.
 

ryst

www.nathandanielmusic.com
As much as I like Altiverb, the choice is glaringly obvious, I’d say: SPAT. Every mixing hour of the day, every day of the week.

In short: SPAT is endlessly more versatile than anything else and also sounds better — and I mean: the sonic integrity of SPAT’s output — than just about everything else. Its only major short-coming is the fact that, in most DAW’s, it’s quite difficult to make SPAT process several sources simultaneously (due to some routing inflexibilities in the combination DAW-SPAT).
But for single source processing, nothing even begins to comes close offering all that is possible with SPAT.

SPAT may look a complex, sophisticated beast at first, with a seemingly infinite number of enigmatic parameters, yes, but for our purposes — placing and positioning virtual instruments in a mix — you actualy only need to know about a surprisingly small handful of these parameters, no more anyway than the number of parameters you’re expected to know about when working with any other reverb/spatializer.

(A good understanding of) seven or so parameters gets you more than started, and then add, say, another ten or fifteen if you want to be fully equal to any spatializing challenge that a mock-up might ever present you with.

Also keep in mind that spatializing — good-sounding, mix- and music-aware spatializing, I mean — is a fairly complex affair to begin with, so a certain degree of commitment and a willingness-to-learn on the part of the user is always going to be requirement. And that’s not just the case with SPAT. Good use of Altiverb, or MIR, or whatever, can also only happen after quite a bit of studying the software and a thorough understanding of everything needs to be considered if you want to be able to spatialize virtual instruments convincingly.)

I’ve done a few SPAT-videos, going over all its important parameters and showing a few different techniques, using source sounds from Sample Modeling, VSL and LASS.
Here’s one of those videos, a "quick glance" type-of-thing which uses an anechoic flute recording to explain some of the SPAT-basics with. (The opening screen indicates where the other videos can be found.)

_

Thanks for sharing, Re-peat! I apologize for being blind but I looked on the other forum and can't find any other videos. I'd love to see them. Can you post those links here?
 

re-peat

Senior Member
Ryst, here's the link.
Wbacer, yes, I did, didn't I? Thanks for reminding me. I'll get on it at once. Should be ready before this week is over.

_
 

givemenoughrope

Senior Member
I've wanted to check out SPAT for a while after the re-peat endorsement/videos but I'm such a dope that i can't figure out how to run the demo on my iLok. I don't understand how to run a demo on an iLok bc I'm a moron. God help me w reverb then.

thanks for the videos, guys.
 
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Den*

New Member
Wow Den, what an effort!

Hi
No I didn't created this list, I just found it.
However for the owners of Aether reverb I created new folder of "01 Classics" in the Factory menu.
I finally found some secrets, and made those presets.
You can download them from here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11769150-post1020.html
Now I use Aether like my main reverb for vocal.

There was a little secret with ER Cascade that tighten up everything so no more muddy freq.
Pure perfection and softness with nice depth.

For sharing.
Cheers
 

Hannes_F

Traveller in boundlessness, at home in the Now
I've wanted to check out SPAT for a while after the re-peat endorsement/videos but I'm such a dope that i can't figure out how to run the demo on my iLok. I don't understand how to run a demo on an iLok bc I'm a moron. God help me w reverb then.

You need the latest iLok license manager from www.ilok.com and then enter your ilok name here https://fluxhome.com/trial
As far as I remember the license is then automatically sent to your iLok account and you can look it up and install in the ilok license manager.
 

givemenoughrope

Senior Member
I did all that and I see it in the ilok license manager but I'm still not sure how to activate it. I contacted flux but I guess I'm just doing something wrong. I'll try again though. Thanks..!
 

Hannes_F

Traveller in boundlessness, at home in the Now
Once you see it in your ilok license manager you need to transfer the license onto your ilok. Once it is on you should be able to start the vst in your DAW.
 

givemenoughrope

Senior Member
Got it working. Thanks, Hannes.

You guys weren't kidding. Spat is a monster. I haven't demo'ed Verb or Verb Session but what is the consensus vs Spat? I guess if the idea is to take dry-ish samples and put them in the same space maybe spat is the way to go. How does SF come into play with this? Maybe taking the close mics only? Although that kills one of the best things about Sable, etc.
 
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