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Sketching in string ensemble patches, then switching to individual tracks/patches

Thank you again. Very kind of you. I’ll try this tomorrow.

In the IAC Driver. In Audio Midi Setup, Window => Show Midi Studio => double click on IAC Driver => hit "+" to add IAC Busses and relabel them. Pull your controller as the input in Midi Patchbay and use these as the outputs. Then, use these busses as the inputs in Logic. When you want to play outside the range on say the viola track either change the range in midi patchbay or switch the midi input in Logic.

Not sure I totally explained that correctly. If you hit a snag let me know. I have Logic also and can try it.
 
Ack, why didn’t i think of that? I worked this a little bit today but ran out of time, will try again this weekend. Thank you!


You can also make a track stack and play the CC data only into the main track. All sub tracks get those.
 
I don't think the arranging sounds bad at all. What concerns me is the performance. Are you using the midi from the piano or ensemble version and re-assigning to the proper instruments, or are you replaying each part?

Thanks! I improvised the thing on piano on the go, and then played completely new lines with the ensemble patch using different lanes (so I could export them easier to the proper section tracks later). I did do some CC1-2-11- riding, but I did not play each part individually note by note as I was more concerned about the sound instead of performance. I wasn't aware that the performance could affect the arrangement "sitting better", so that might explain also something!

To my ear, it sounds more like piano voicings doubled out and played by strings. That's different than writing for strings.
Going from sketch to string arrangement some sometimes requires a bit more than simply using an auto-arrange tool or moving a particular voice up or down an octave by default.

As I mentioned, I did everything from scratch with the strings, and the piano was just a quick improvisation piece. I should be aware how writing for strings differs from piano, but I'd like to ask what made you observe that when listening to both clips? I mean, I am really interested to know what am I missing here, because I thought I was doing something completely different arrangement- wise compared to the piano (well, except for the melody line and some bass notes, of course).

The "moving a particular voice up or down"- well, guilty as charged, haha! I wanted a bit more bigger arrangement and thought basic doubling would be just bad arrangement, and certainly didn't want any more stems (for the lack of a better expression) to fill the arrangement up. How many string stems you usually do if you want to make a more dense arrangement?
 
Hi,

This is a very interesting, and important topic. I wish there were some good Youtube video tutorials that focus on this topic. If there are, I haven't found them yet.

i.e. Using a Piano or String Ensemble patch that will be used to create separate string voicing for each string section (V1, V2, VA, CL, BA). the methodology in doing this.

I also notice that some videos show composers using high and low string ensembles, or just a full string ensemble, and the results are pretty good. i.e. ProjectSam, Orch. Tools Metropolis ARK 1, CineSamples Strings Ensembles, ..etc. Maybe not as detailed, and rich sounding as a full fleshed 5 individual string sections, but given the saving in time one gains, compared to using separate tracks for each of the five string sections, it might be good enough for some projects, depending on how good the performance is, and how good the ensemble patch, or patches being used sounds at various dynamics, and articulations.

Thanks,
Muziksculp
 
Sorry, I have no idea how the images got lost. I've reuploaded the scores of the melody and the proper voice leading example. Unfortunately I haven't saved the score of the keyboard playing example. I'd have to transcribe it to put up the score again. May do that if I find the time.
 
This is really important, and helped me put my finger on why I don't like writing with "string pads." It overstates how homogeneous the string orchestra is... of course we can make almost anything blend, but the best writing will take into account the differences and particularities of the 4 instruments.

A really good example of this is how the first three notes of B minor could be assigned to the violin's G string, the viola's G string, or the cello's A string. However these three sounds will be totally different. The violin's string sounds sonorous, rich, warm, intense and introspective. The viola playing the same notes on a different string with a different resonating body, sounds much less intense, more grave and subdued but also gentle. The cello will sound vibrant, incisive, bright, maybe even steely...That is without getting into the other possibilities like having the cellos play sul D which will have a more noble and pleasantly warm sound instead of the steely metallic feeling of the A string, but you also get a straining or "Reaching" in quality in the sound... any one of these choices might be "the right choice" depending on the music. Another great example is comparing the wolfish, gruff, dark Viola C to the Cello D which is our most gentle, clear and pleasant string. Same notes, different tone....

Right on! And this is just when writing for strings. The same concept applies when writing for full orchestra and on top of that layering different instruments to color the sound/tone/timbre, thickening, unison, doubled, etc. And its not just 4 sections, its up 16 instruments each with their own color, timbre, tone and range!!!!! Its very complex, daunting and sophisticated!! This is the hardest part for me - trying to figure out what instrument in each section should play what note. This is where education, knowledge and experience comes into play. So for now I'm just sticking with writing for strings and get really good at that before I move on to brass and woodwinds.

FYI - There are so many courses online that helps with this. Here is a good won that helped me: https://scoreclub.net/course/orchestrating-the-line/
 
This is one of the most educational threads I've seen on vi-c since I started here. Many thanks to all the contributors.

This could turn out to be the one of the best threads in this forum on orchestral arranging, maybe become worthy for permanent pin.
 
I would like to add a more technical question: How do you approach the splitting of voices to the individual instruments inside your DAW?

I had an almost perfect setup inside Reaper that would
  1. automatically split up the cords I had played
  2. send each of the played notes automatically to the corresponding instrument depending on its pitch and my desired basic arrangement (strings, woodwinds, brass)
  3. copy the midi CC data to each of the split out tracks
I even scripted a function which would allow me to switch two notes across multiple instruments without the need to do any of the usual but painfully slow copying & pasting...

An enormous time saver for quick sketching, transferring and fine-grained rearranging afterwards.

Sadly I could not cope with some of the rather strange Reaper behaviors inside the MIDI Editor and the UI overall... so I moved back to Cubase 9.5. Now all this cool scripting is gone and I have reverted back to the usual copy & paste ****.

At least I found a way to let the application automatically move the notes to the individual instruments by pitch. But there are still rather strange bugs inside this DAW as well, which make it less than perfect...
 
Great topic! I normally sketch on piano and start doing the individual string parts. I used to sketch with a string pad but it just seemed to make things more difficult.
 
It's a good thread. But I think we could all learn a lot by looking at John Williams' scores to Harry Potter and Angela's Ashes, both of which have sections where strings predominate, or are all by themselves.

Looking at block chords that a member put together and trying to guess where they might end up in a "good" string arrangement is helpful, but it's also helpful to work backwards -- to see John Williams' masterful final product and then simplify it a bit. Do a quick and dirty chord analysis -- not every single last thing, but just so you see harmonically what's going on in the simplest way.

Then go back again the other way, from the simple to the score, and see the ways in which JW added lines, leading tones, and orchestration tricks -- how high do the cellos get when he wants them to stand out? -- that kind of thing.

The cost of the scores combined would be about $125, much less than, say, a string library. Who knows? You might even save money in the long run?
 
I've tried ensemble string patches, but they're always a pain when I want more than one articulation going at the same time (which is most of the time). Also a eight-note chord played with an ensemble patch multiples the size of the ensemble by eight. This is too annoyingly unrealistic for my tastes.

I don't know your computer's resources, but I have set up my orchestral template with lots of empty space for unique non-orchestral sounds that I will load in as I work on a specific project. Even if I am planning to write non-orchestral music, I start with the same orchestral template. The orchestra just sits there quietly and patiently waiting, until invariably I ask one of its players to join in...
 
I love sketching with string pads. Or let's rather say to "gather ideas". There many ideas and themes near and dear to me that I would've never ever come up with using a piano. The same is true in reverse, so I do both. String pads, piano and some other instruments - sketching and gathering ideas.
I guess the usefulness also depends on the music you write.

String pads also don't have to sound soooo bad... with stacked violins on top. ;)blasphemic stuff...


 
I am writing this chart for a symphony show. There are 3 independent "thoughts", I often have 5. I just kinda picked this example at random. It's anti-keyboard, this just ain't a-gonna pop out of a keyboard. The viola pedal is lower than the cello. The 2nd fiddles do harmony but a slightly different rhythm that makes sense. The firsts and celli are 2 octaves apart.

When approaching string writing, the best choices are tailor made for the section. I could easily swap the violas and celli, but that's not the sound I need. I need the richness of the celli for this particular passage. And this is where the whole concept of "independent" lines comes into play. The violas will give a nice subdued quality for the pedal, but they won't have that special lyrical quality that the celli do on the melody. This type of writing takes into consideration the various tonal qualities of each instrument and doesn't consider them a "group", because they really aren't. 3i.jpg
 
I think JohnG has some really good advice regarding looking at JW scores. Transcribing is also really important. If the harmony at a point in the piece is an Eminor what are the cellos doing to imply that harmony? Are they carrying it all themselves or is the E minor shared among other instruments/sections to get the harmony to happen? Is there a driving pulse in this section?..Then who's the "hi hat" in the orchestra driving the time and what are they doing rhthmically and harmonically to give us the groove? I think these are some of the questions one needs to ask to learn the art of writing for orchestra. Kinda the same thing many of us did when learning the orchestration of a Genesis tune or an Eagles song when we were kids (what's the bass player doing? what beats are the kick hitting on? etc. I say write the piece on the piano into your sequencer so you don't get swallowed up and distracted in sample land and finish the compositon first..and write something good! And for those who wonder "what if you can't play all the parts with two hands?" Guy Bacos said to that... overdub them into your composition on a track but with the piano. (in other words use 4 hands if you need to). Still keeps you focused on the task which at this point is the composition. Then after that orchestrate it but don't use the ensemble patch..write LINES that state/imply the harmony and have some movement and interest. Isn't that really where a big part of the magic of the orchestara lives? I also asked Andy Blaney his approach on this very topic (using pads) and he said (if my memory serves me correctly) that he "always writes all his parts as single lines into the sequencer"...and I've heard he sequences orchestral music into a computer pretty well :)
 
Sketch the strings with a piano patch, not a string ensemble patch.
Makes sense. I often end up switching to a piano library when developing ideas.
Besides, one can always call up a kid who plays some string instrument later and check how playable the piece is before publishing it.

 
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