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DID CHOI

New Member
Hey guys,

I made a comparison video of CSB and Sample Modeling, two very different libraries, both highly esteemed. This video features just legatos in a lyrical setting.
For anyone going between these two libraries or just curious how they compare, I hope this helps!

Overall impressions: Very different types of libraries with potentially very different uses. SM is great for customizing and expression, therefore exposed solos, while CSB fits in with orchestral mixes easily, and IMO has better tone overall. SM is a pain to mix (I've tried IRs, VSS, Algorithmic reverbs, EQ, Matching EQ), maybe it's better with Altiverb, but I don't have that. (More detailed impressions in the video)

0:07 Sample Modeling Wet
1:07 Cinematic Studio Brass Wet
2:08 A/B Comparison
3:13 Sample Modeling Dry
4:13 Cinematic Studio Brass Dry
5:14 Both Libraries Blended, Wet

If this is helpful, I can make a few more featuring different articulations or styles in the future. Let me know with comments either on the video or here~ (Leaving a like on the video would also be great hehe)
Link:
The video features an arrangement of my piece "Remembrance," which won the Howard Cable Memorial Prize in Composition by the Canadian Band Association, if you'd like to here the original, here's the link: https://soundcloud.com/didchoi/remembrance
Score available at www.didchoi.com/remembrance

Let me know if you have any questions or comments!
D.I. Danny Choi

_

My Website: www.didchoi.com
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3N_wh7JOUswMH6vMfNwMlg?view_as=subscriber
My SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/didchoi
My Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/didchoi
 
Last edited:

Jeremy Spencer

Senior Member
Danny, what a moving piece you wrote there, well done. You totally captured the essence of remembrance, I hope it was performed somewhere on Remembrance Day in Canada.

The comparisons are good, I can hear the differences, I personally prefer the sound of CSB. Maybe it's the programming, but a lot of passages sound kind of synthetic. This is definitely something that is inevitable with VI's, but brass is one of the harder ones to emulate. Well done!

PS- 4:14 Both Libraries Blended, Wet should actually be 5:14

Cheers!
 

robgb

Inspiration is for amateurs
In truth, dry samples are much easier to work with than wet samples. Dry samples give you more control. You need to use a combination of reverb (or delay) and a good IR to place them properly in a space. You could use a simple room reverb like the free Dragonfly to set the samples back in the room, then add a hall IR to that. Having wet samples may make things easier, but they also limit you to that distance and amount of ambience.
 

Robert Kooijman

Active Member
Thank you Danny for this comparison.

Also prefer the tone of CSB. SM but also VSL bone dry samples rarely do it for me. The complex acoustic interaction with the hall / space is what makes the sound.

If the choice is between control and tone, I usually prioritize the latter.

A typical listening audience probably wouldn't notice or pay much attention to articulation subtleties, the general tone and other factors related to production and composition make often more of an impact.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
A few bits of advice would be to make sure that what you're playing sounds good dry what's samplemodeling before it hits the Reverb

Another would be that if you are using Todd ayo, then there is a good chance you have altiverb and I think it's worth mentioning that there is a track down impulse, which is where cinematic Studio brass was recorded



Believe It or Not, modulating volume on samplemodeling helps as well. I've also felt that it could use a plate Reverb sometimes on another send.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
for comparison, I threw csb mixed mic solo trumpet in my daw, an SM trumpet, tossed a few sends (dry/altiverb/a little plate verb)

played a random phrase with the CSB trumpet, then played some random stuff over the top of it on the SM trumpet.

I did not modulate vibrato at all on the SM trumpet(thus there is none) I instead used cc1 and cc2 to control the kontakt volume between 40% and 90% - this opens up way more timbre differences(thus the SM trumpet is able to sound warm and full or bright but not blaring.

edit: i suppose i should upload the example? well i added a second example of the 2 trumpets being played in at the same time, using CC2 to control SM volume in real time to balance as an ensemble sound.

Also added cinebrass + CSB that were EQ'd to match my teldex stuff originally, so i EQ'd them as a bus to make it seem like it was coming from the same space. The moral of the story is, knowledge of the tools you have help a lot, and minimize the differences/expand capabilities of what you have.

bonus points if you know the theme I'm playing in the 2nd example
 

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  • CSB-SM-CINEBRASS.mp3
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Scamper

Sample Hooter
Interesting. While listening to everything on my headphones, during the A/B comparison when it switches from CSB to SM, it sounds like I don't have my headphones on anymore and the sound is coming out of my speakers.
Anways, nice piece and great comparison. Always love em.
 
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DID CHOI

DID CHOI

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Danny, what a moving piece you wrote there, well done. You totally captured the essence of remembrance, I hope it was performed somewhere on Remembrance Day in Canada.

The comparisons are good, I can hear the differences, I personally prefer the sound of CSB. Maybe it's the programming, but a lot of passages sound kind of synthetic. This is definitely something that is inevitable with VI's, but brass is one of the harder ones to emulate. Well done!

PS- 4:14 Both Libraries Blended, Wet should actually be 5:14

Cheers!

Thanks! I’ve a got several school bands ready to play it once the new term begins! CSB does sound synthetic at times, especially when exposed like this. I think it’s fine in an orchestral mix though.
Maybe I’m not as good with SM programming, I keep working at it, but it’s just harder to get the right tone
 
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DID CHOI

DID CHOI

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Thank you Danny for this comparison.

Also prefer the tone of CSB. SM but also VSL bone dry samples rarely do it for me. The complex acoustic interaction with the hall / space is what makes the sound.

If the choice is between control and tone, I usually prioritize the latter.

A typical listening audience probably wouldn't notice or pay much attention to articulation subtleties, the general tone and other factors related to production and composition make often more of an impact.

I agree. Certain room feelings can’t be reproduced with IR convolution and spatialization. I also think tone is more important, which is why I think I’ll primarily be using CSB, and use SM to fill in any gaps
 
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DID CHOI

DID CHOI

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A few bits of advice would be to make sure that what you're playing sounds good dry what's samplemodeling before it hits the Reverb

Another would be that if you are using Todd ayo, then there is a good chance you have altiverb and I think it's worth mentioning that there is a track down impulse, which is where cinematic Studio brass was recorded



Believe It or Not, modulating volume on samplemodeling helps as well. I've also felt that it could use a plate Reverb sometimes on another send.

It’s a free version for Space Designer in Logic. Haven’t had the need for Altiverb vs the cost yet haha
 
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DID CHOI

DID CHOI

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for comparison, I threw csb mixed mic solo trumpet in my daw, an SM trumpet, tossed a few sends (dry/altiverb/a little plate verb)

played a random phrase with the CSB trumpet, then played some random stuff over the top of it on the SM trumpet.

I did not modulate vibrato at all on the SM trumpet(thus there is none) I instead used cc1 and cc2 to control the kontakt volume between 40% and 90% - this opens up way more timbre differences(thus the SM trumpet is able to sound warm and full or bright but not blaring.

edit: i suppose i should upload the example? well i added a second example of the 2 trumpets being played in at the same time, using CC2 to control SM volume in real time to balance as an ensemble sound.

Also added cinebrass + CSB that were EQ'd to match my teldex stuff originally, so i EQ'd them as a bus to make it seem like it was coming from the same space. The moral of the story is, knowledge of the tools you have help a lot, and minimize the differences/expand capabilities of what you have.

bonus points if you know the theme I'm playing in the 2nd example
Wow thanks for the example! What do you think of Cinebrass? I was originally going to by it over CSB, but eventually settled on CSB. I'd love to buy Cinebrass one day too though
 
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DID CHOI

DID CHOI

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Interesting. While listening to everything on my headphones, during the A/B comparison when it switches from CSB to SM, it sounds like I don't have my headphones on anymore and the sound is coming out of my speakers.
Anways, nice piece and great comparison. Always love em.
It's probably because of the convolution used haha. Gives it a nice room sound.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
Wow thanks for the example! What do you think of Cinebrass? I was originally going to by it over CSB, but eventually settled on CSB. I'd love to buy Cinebrass one day too though

a bit long in the tooth but still good. I enjoy the lower dynamics more than csb.
 
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