Sample Library Depreciation thread

Discussion in 'SAMPLE Talk' started by NYC Composer, May 10, 2019.

  1. Shiirai

    Shiirai Resident Crow

    Oct 11, 2018
    I find it unnerving how people keep repeating they've "gotten used to it" and have "learned to deal with it", how they try to minimize the damage, making excuses for the companies.

    Kinda in the same way someone may talk about an abusive spouse.
    d.healey and richardt4520 like this.
  2. chocobitz825

    chocobitz825 Active Member

    Aug 7, 2018
    i think the problem is that many people don't consider this abuse. I've gotten used to nothing because its been a non-issue to me. i Imagine some might have just gotten used to it because they found ways to grow with their libraries.
    Paul Cardon, dzilizzi, JohnG and 2 others like this.
  3. Guy Rowland

    Guy Rowland Senior Member

    Dec 13, 2012
    Wary of saying anything else in this thread, but fwiw:

    1. If you can't demo or trial a product, and can't refund it if you are unhappy with it, it is inevitable that some customers will be pissed off if it doesn't meet their expectation. Complaining about unhappy people in this inevtiable situation is futile.

    2. Price of sale is irrelevant.

    3. Some developers operate policies that mitigate this, such as:
    i) allowing refunds
    ii) allowing resales
    iii) demo licenses
    iv) services such as Try Sound
    ... while others offer nothing at all. All this should be - and usually is - clear upfront.

    4. For those that don't offer any options in (3), we all rely on a combination of:
    i) promotional material
    ii) user feedback inc demos and walkthroughs
    iii) our prior experience with the company in question.

    5. Legally, there is no precedent that covers consumers in this area.

    Given all that, we all pays our money and makes our choice.
  4. FriFlo

    FriFlo Senior Member

    Jun 13, 2011
    I think my full post answers exactly what is missing by only quoting that part of my post ...
    richardt4520 likes this.
  5. Ashermusic

    Ashermusic Senior Member

    Mar 27, 2006
    Los Angeles
    It's pretty simple. Different developers have different policies that they have arrived at for their reasons. They are not stupid. They ALL know most people would love it if they could return or re-sell their products.

    So if it matters to you, you vote with your wallet. That is the only factor that has the potential to change their mind. Words written on a forum will not. It's equivalent to passing gas in an open field.
  6. Alex Fraser

    Alex Fraser Senior Member

    Jun 21, 2017
    I see the point you're trying to make, but domestic abuse is another thing entirely.

    I really don't believe that we're "victims" in anyway. Being unhappy about a purchase is more about having your expectations not met, assuming the library isn't a complete dud. And sometimes those expectations are out of whack with reality anyhow.

    Ultimately, we vote with our wallets and any developers that have seriously dubious practices get called out here. Guy's post above sums it up nicely. I can't put it any better.
  7. Daryl

    Daryl Senior Member

    Mar 25, 2006
    It doesn't, because you still don't accept that this is nothing to do with music. What you are asking for is that an audio recording, of less than a certain length, should not be protected under audio recording laws. If you want changes, you have to be clear about them.
  8. muk

    muk Senior Member

    Jan 21, 2009
    You are very wrong here in my opinion Jay. The actions of an individual have very little repercussions, especially so if you keep quiet about it. Discussing on a forum can lead to a much stronger effect, because it can inspire others to act similarly. And collective action is incomparably more powerful than individual action.

    Anyway. I can't think of one single field that had similarly punishing terms for
    customers than sample libraries. I don't know of one single business where you can't try a good or license before buying it, can't return it within a certain period, and can't resell it. Not a single one. Shouldn't that make you pause and think? I find it should. And I especially find it should make sample developers think.
  9. Daryl

    Daryl Senior Member

    Mar 25, 2006
    Some of that is correct. Some of it is flat out wrong, as I've already told you.
  10. chocobitz825

    chocobitz825 Active Member

    Aug 7, 2018
    So....this has been a fruitless discussion huh?
  11. JohnG

    JohnG Senior Member

    Nov 13, 2007
    There are some fairly extreme positions hereabouts!

    First, returning or reselling products in other spheres is not as bright a line as people are arguing. Microsoft, for example, only sort of allows transfers of Windows 10 (see below). Second, sometimes if an industry practice emerges, there's a pretty good chance that the cost of transfers (policing them, and as @thesteelydane pointed out, lost sales) are so high in aggregate that hardly any company allows them. Put another way, the economics just don't permit it.

    Sample library companies are "teeny-tiny" as my kids used to say. We are not talking about Oracle or even Symantec. Just because Some People own a fancy car doesn't make it nefarious.

    I really like my libraries and am willing to put up with what appears to be an industry standard in order to use them. Having a dongle so that, when I install the software it will work, hardly feels like an invasion of privacy to me, especially in view of the fact that none of my sample computers is on line. So I'm not being constantly surveilled, as someone was arguing.

    Returns? Not so Clear-Cut

    The ONLY reason that stores will take returns of physical goods is because their competitors do it. Even then:

    1. Many retailers reject returns if the product is no longer in a condition for sale -- not every store does that but plenty do;

    2. If you're returning a shirt, for example, they know that you can't have, secretly, stashed a perfect copy of the shirt at home to use as much as you like while getting all your money back;

    3. Other products, like cars (just bought one after an accident totaled the old one) allow only the most cursory "test drive," a sort of goofy tradition that is insufficient to reveal flaws that only appear later, with use. It won't tell you that the exhaust or transmission system won't last five years, for example. A test drive won't even reveal things like an engine that makes a lot more noise after a long drive than it does toodling around for 20 minutes or so (the duration of a typical test drive).

    Software Re-sale and Transfer? Not Universal Either

    Other software restricts transfers too -- it's not just samples. Here's the Windows 10 transfer stuff:

    4. Transfer. The provisions of this section do not apply if you acquired the software in Germany or in any of the countries listed on this site (, in which case any transfer of the software to a third party, and the right to use it, must comply with applicable law.

    a. Software preinstalled on device. If you acquired the software preinstalled on a device (and also if you upgraded from software preinstalled on a device), you may transfer the license to use the software directly to another user, only with the licensed device. The transfer must include the software and, if provided with the device, an authentic Windows label including the product key. Before any permitted transfer, the other party must agree that this agreement applies to the transfer and use of the software.

    b. Stand-alone software. If you acquired the software as stand-alone software (and also if you upgraded from software you acquired as stand-alone software), you may transfer the software to another device that belongs to you. You may also transfer the software to a device owned by someone else if (i) you are the first licensed user of the software and (ii) the new user agrees to the terms of this agreement. You may use the backup copy we allow you to make or the media that the software came on to transfer the software. Every time you transfer the software to a new device, you must remove the software from the prior device. You may not transfer the software to share licenses between devices.
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  12. FriFlo

    FriFlo Senior Member

    Jun 13, 2011
    I am saying it is a question of definition and legislation. And that may change, but you seem to be convinced it is a natural right or basic human right, don’t you? I think not in the case of sample libraries as the special rights due to the fact that these contain recordings seem grotesque to me. Think about it that’s way:
    Sample Modeling may prohibit the resale of their products, as all of them contain samples.
    Audio Modeling may not, as it is software (physical modeling), although a musician was recorded just as long as for Sample Modeling to study the way he/she plays the instrument and emulate that.
    Modern developments sometimes make legislation of the past absurd in certain circumstances. I am sorry, if that bothers you, but from my POV that is clearly the case with this example. It leads to unfair conditions between different developers with alternative approaches.
    richardt4520 likes this.
  13. JoelS

    JoelS Member

    That's the part that I find most relevant. If sample libraries were delivered to the end user in a perfectly secure container (whether digital or physical) that could inviolably hold the data, then it would make perfect sense from the developer side of things to allow resale or returns. There would be a guarantee that the customer could not keep the data in any way and continue to use it. But that doesn't exist, and attempts at engineering DRM have so far led mainly to punishment on the consumer side of things.

    If you buy a hardware synth and resell it, you can't continue to use the hardware synth since it's gone. It's completely different with digital sample libraries made of infinitely reproducible files.

    Maybe there's some blockchain based solution to be found here, where licenses are stored on a distributed, public ledger... (edited this in: ) though I guess that wouldn't solve the problem of the sample data still being locally stored. Maybe when internet speeds are higher the actual data could be streamed and libraries would be a service rather than a product. Spotify for 100GB sample libraries. Lot of problems any way you look at it.

    Personally, I like that there is a vast diversity of products available in the virtual instrument market. I think that a situation where resale/returns were completely available would heavily favor the larger business entities because they could afford to absorb the hit that comes from all the dangers and risks associated with that policy. I believe it would limit diversity (and thereby innovation) if smaller developers faced substantially higher risks. My opinion is that large business entities are more likely to maintain a status quo and continue to deliver 'safe' products rather than innovate or cover esoteric niche demands.

    It seems to me that the current situation where a variety of licensing practices exist allows for small developers to have a chance while offering the consumer choices based on their own risk tolerance.

    (whether small devs can ultimately compete in the Discount Wars ecosystem is another question)
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  14. Brian Nowak

    Brian Nowak Active Member

    Jan 9, 2018
    I mean, is that not the telltale sign of being on VI-C? :rofl:

    Honestly, "forum discussion" probably doesn't mean a huge amount to developers anyway, since there are people with completely unbalanced, off-kilter and extreme opinions here. Especially in threads like these. Further, it's a totally mixed bag. I see a handful of actual professionals on this forum, and then loads of amateurs with more money than they have common sense. Those amateurs waste no time complaining about even the slightest trifles. Calling something "UNUSABLE" is a pretty common laughing point for most people outside this forum.

    Reality lies somewhere in between the extremes for most users of any software. It's pretty rare that any library comes out that is a true dud. There are some libraries I wouldn't touch with a burning ten-foot pole, and yet people are out there using them and getting paid for high-end trailers. So... o_O
    chocobitz825 likes this.
  15. StillLife

    StillLife Senior Member

    Mar 18, 2017
    Great post, putting things in perspective.
    chocobitz825 and JohnG like this.
  16. Alex Fraser

    Alex Fraser Senior Member

    Jun 21, 2017
    What's new? :)

    I remember having to order "Sample CDs" blind from the back of a magazine, relying on descriptions alone: "Over 45 minutes of phat, drumming smoking audio!" the hope that I'd find something usable.

    I'll take walkthroughs over that any day!
    halfwalk, Henu and JohnG like this.
  17. Henu

    Henu Senior Member

    Nov 17, 2017
    Yep, I don't buy anything anymore without watching at least a couple of walkthroughs- usually as many as I can.

    It has saved me a lot of money and frustration this way and if there's something I'd tell myself a couple of years ago, it would be that advice. I think that with a decent walkthrough- say, something @Guy Rowland has done with the Project Sams for example- is worth ten dressed and sugar-coated demos easily.
    dzilizzi likes this.
  18. kitekrazy

    kitekrazy Senior Member

    Dec 23, 2008
    We need a sub forum called "Let's Beat Another Dead Horse" so we can dump this one there.
    EgM, Brian Nowak, Paul Cardon and 2 others like this.
  19. Quasar

    Quasar Senior Member

    Jun 26, 2012
    True, the same or similar ground tends to get covered over and over again, ad nauseam. On the other hand, as long as the issues remain current and unresolved they also remain relevant.

    In terms of sub-forums, when talking about VIs in terms of their musical or technical aspects, the general forums are fine. But whenever the topics veer into the economic arena: marketing claims, copy protection, licensing, terms of sale etc. it's impossible to have a discussion without venturing into the political, because such subjects are inherently political in nature, and thus should probably be moved to that area.
    Guy Rowland and dzilizzi like this.
  20. OP
    NYC Composer

    NYC Composer Senior Member

    Jul 24, 2008
    I don’t think my premise has anything to do with politics whatsoever. It has to do with business policies and practices of the purveyors of sample libraries.

    As a result, “Sample Talk” seems an apt place for it :)
    richardt4520 likes this.

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