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Sample Library Depreciation thread

tomosane

New Member
The idea that a customer could buy a sample library and then do whatever they want with it is probably never going to catch on in this business

Personally I'd *much* rather deal with the "no resales" policy and the occassional bad purchase than with other kinds of measures some companies have devised in order to protect their IP. (see: VSL)
 

Stanoli

Member
Yeah and I hate that they never send me flowers after I buy something.
What is this bu!!$&it?

This <me-me-me everything for free> attitude is kind of asocial.
Adapt to the rules of the mercandiser or leave it,
but please stop whining about and depreciating a great company.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
This has been a constant problem of the digital age and selling products that are just basically data...its like food products...once someone has consumed it, taking it back is complicated. You don't know if they ever really got rid of it. If you give permission to resell it, again, did they keep a copy for themselves? Did the resale experience go well? Do bad experiences with resale negatively impact the product and brand? There are just a lot of weird things to consider that no one has really sorted out well with digital content.

I can't say I've been 100% satisfied with everything I've bought, but I try to find purpose and use for the things I get, even my less favorite ones. I do encourage the subscription model though only if it covers all products from a company. While I rarely go back to using EastWest as much recently, I appreciate that when they release something new, my subscription lets me try it and for as long as I have the subscription, I know those tools are in my arsenal. I have a problem with the "pick 10 products" type of subscription like waves do, because it's hard to change the products in that subscription sometimes, and you still don't get the benefit of using that subscription to try new products when they come out, so it's as risky as buying really. If anything it's just deferred payment.

I hope the subscription model picks up more.
 

Desire Inspires

To the stars through desire....
I guess threads like this show us the mentality being the hobbyists and the professionals.

The hobbyists will buy a sample library, use it, complain about its weaknesses, then look to buy another sample library.

The professionals will buy a sample library, use it, determine its strengths, and then push the samples to their maximum before buying another sample library.

It is time to understand where you are in your journey.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
I guess threads like this show us the mentality being the hobbyists and the professionals.

The hobbyists will buy a sample library, use it, complain about its weaknesses, then look to buy another sample library.

The professionals will buy a sample library, use it, determine its strengths, and then push the samples to their maximum before buying another sample library.

It is time to understand where you are in your journey.

Isn't that a bit over generalized a statement? Doesn't it somewhat depend on what kind of professional you are and the nature of your job? If you're pushing out volume and just want a consistent setup, then yes you probably won't spend a lot of time searching for new libraries because you just want to work. As a professional artist and a creator, where the focus is not only on getting out projects in volume but rather about making each project unique, I cannot stand how incredibly stale some people's creations become when they constantly use the same libraries and tricks for everything they do. Particularly in my market, where stale, almost template based music making put out in mass is just too familiar. There are merits to both sides. If my business was to basically fulfill someone's order to make something like a work that is already out there, but different enough so as not to be sued for plagiarism then yeah, I might choose to have my everyday tools with little experimentation and focus on the things I'm used to that work for me. If I need my project to stand out, and be different, and new...then there is absolute value as a professional to continually seek out new sounds.
 

Stanoli

Member
It depends from which angle you look at it:
From your money or from the quality of the product.

Years ago as a professional you could only dream of the price and quality of the Spitfire products.
So you see the money spent also as an investment into the future of the company that they are able to continue their outstanding work.

Hobbyists do not earn money as music is not their number one occupation (Job, other hobbies, family, vacation are on the same importance level) so the quality of the music is therefore not as good that professionals would hire them.
So I see their resale point but it is a stupid and destructive one.

Rant over :faint:
 

scoringdreams

Random Member A
So many interesting perspectives here...

Thinking deeper, I believe that once we made the decision to purchase something, it's akin to us accepting the product for what it was presented as; and that's where the concept of v2 upgrades come from, or as SFA managed to pull off quite well - re-branding/bundling (Sable to Chamber, Mural to Symphonic Series etc)

...and if not what we had initially expected, we could demand a fix which of course depends on the existing capabilities and capacity of the developer, and this is where it gets touchy when we are expected to pay more to get our fixes; makes costing sense for developers to charge us, but it betrays our value expectations which results in pages of complaints on forums...it's a matter of how much businesses want to pay to get their customers, and if the exchange is going overboard/unreasonable for the dev, there is the choice of re-shifting their target segments to customers who are willing to pay (to maintain the value exchange)...
 

Guy Rowland

Senior Member
I guess threads like this show us the mentality being the hobbyists and the professionals.

The hobbyists will buy a sample library, use it, complain about its weaknesses, then look to buy another sample library.

The professionals will buy a sample library, use it, determine its strengths, and then push the samples to their maximum before buying another sample library.

It is time to understand where you are in your journey.
Poor Larry. A lifetime in the business full time working day in day out on superb music, and he still hasn't reached the giddy tier of "professional". In your eyes.

I'll leave you all to it, nothing more to add. Here, anyway.
 

muk

Senior Member
Warning: long rant follow.

Yeah and I hate that they never send me flowers after I buy something.
What is this bu!!$&it?

This <me-me-me everything for free> attitude is kind of asocial.
Adapt to the rules of the mercandiser or leave it,
but please stop whining about and depreciating a great company.
What a heap of neo-liberal bullshit. “Stop whining, simply don’t buy it if you don’t like it. Vote with your wallet. Never connect with other people, all you can do is to adjust your own behavior”. Well, I think that people absolutely should connect on forums and voice their dissatisfactions. Because as a group people can actually achieve something. If enough people are dissatisfied and let a company know it, they can make companies improve their products, change their course etc. Whereas an individual never will.

Another problem: “Simply don’t buy it if you don’t like it”. Sure, I never would. The problem is that with most sample library developers you can’t know beforehand, because there is no way to properly test a library. It’s basically a leap of faith. And afterwards you are stuck with your purchase, because many developers don’t allow resales.

Resales, that’s the next problem. In the EU, after the 2012 Oracle ruling, it is dubious for sample developers to forbid resales to say the least. It may be an unlawful policy in their EULA that might be legally void. But we don’t know until somebody tests it before court. It’s one thing to demand individuals to not enter a EULA they don’t agree with. But you could just as well demand companies not to put things in it that are potentially unlawful and might not stand before court. I know, that’s not what neoliberalism wants, because all the burdens should be on the individual while companies should be able to do whatever the heck they like.

As it stands, buyers are at a large disadvantage. They can’t properly assess a sample library before buying it, because most developers don’t make any sort of demo available. You can not try before you buy. Neither do they allow returns during a certain period of time. And if you have bought it, you are stuck with it because they don’t allow resales. That’s a deeply flawed system that puts buyers at a huge, unfair disadvantage.

In my opinion there can never be enough negative talk about these unfair business practices. The more people voice their concerns about this the better. Yes, do adjust your buying behavior and vote with your wallet. But also let the companies know about it. Connect, ‘whine’ on forums as much as possible. And never let any ill-considered internet bully tell you that you can’t achieve anything if you connect as a community.

So no, I won’t let you shut me up. If I find a library or a developer to have issues with quality control, bugs, or substantial shortcomings I will say so. And I thank everybody who does the same, because it is the only way to get crucial information about sample libraries. Because at the moment I think the sample library business is deeply flawed.

As long as sample developers EULA’s are as they are now, we do need as many frank assessments we can get. We need as many people as re-peat, Guy, NoamL, AlexanderSchiborr, Daniel James, NYC Composer and others who are delving deep into libraries and showing us their findings. Not through the rose-tinted glasses of the many fanboys frequenting this forum. But by the point of view of seasoned professionals who don’t toy with these libraries, but depend on them as professional tools to earn a living.
 

Daryl

Senior Member
Resales, that’s the next problem. In the EU, after the 2012 Oracle ruling, it is dubious for sample developers to forbid resales to say the least.
That ruling has no hearing on sample libraries, as long as they use recorded audio samples. If the product uses no samples, and is 100%physically modelled, then it is covered.
 
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Peter Williams

New Member
It depends from which angle you look at it:
From your money or from the quality of the product.

Years ago as a professional you could only dream of the price and quality of the Spitfire products.
So you see the money spent also as an investment into the future of the company that they are able to continue their outstanding work.

Hobbyists do not earn money as music is not their number one occupation (Job, other hobbies, family, vacation are on the same importance level) so the quality of the music is therefore not as good that professionals would hire them.
So I see their resale point but it is a stupid and destructive one.

Rant over :faint:
Note: this response is to an earlier post regarding the "superior" work of professionals, presumably doing soundtracks.

I have to agree with you, for the most part. But most professionals are really focused on commercial production, and the most successful are part of a production team. Some of the very best music comes from academics, amateurs and fringe artists who just can't help themselves. The movie/game industry is where the money is, and some of it's participants show great creativity and imagination, but most of the most interesting stuff is probably happening elsewhere. Too bad most of us will never experience it.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
Warning: long rant follow.



What a heap of neo-liberal bullshit. “Stop whining, simply don’t buy it if you don’t like it. Vote with your wallet. Never connect with other people, all you can do is to adjust your own behavior”. Well, I think that people absolutely should connect on forums and voice their dissatisfactions. Because as a group people can actually achieve something. If enough people are dissatisfied and let a company know it, they can make companies improve their products, change their course etc. Whereas an individual never will.

Another problem: “Simply don’t buy it if you don’t like it”. Sure, I never would. The problem is that with most sample library developers you can’t know beforehand, because there is no way to properly test a library. It’s basically a leap of faith. And afterwards you are stuck with your purchase, because many developers don’t allow resales.

Resales, that’s the next problem. In the EU, after the 2012 Oracle ruling, it is dubious for sample developers to forbid resales to say the least. It may be an unlawful policy in their EULA that might be legally void. But we don’t know until somebody tests it before court. It’s one thing to demand individuals to not enter a EULA they don’t agree with. But you could just as well demand companies not to put things in it that are potentially unlawful and might not stand before court. I know, that’s not what neoliberalism wants, because all the burdens should be on the individual while companies should be able to do whatever the heck they like.

As it stands, buyers are at a large disadvantage. They can’t properly assess a sample library before buying it, because most developers don’t make any sort of demo available. You can not try before you buy. Neither do they allow returns during a certain period of time. And if you have bought it, you are stuck with it because they don’t allow resales. That’s a deeply flawed system that puts buyers at a huge, unfair disadvantage.

In my opinion there can never be enough negative talk about these unfair business practices. The more people voice their concerns about this the better. Yes, do adjust your buying behavior and vote with your wallet. But also let the companies know about it. Connect, ‘whine’ on forums as much as possible. And never let any ill-considered internet bully tell you that you can’t achieve anything if you connect as a community.

So no, I won’t let you shut me up. If I find a library or a developer to have issues with quality control, bugs, or substantial shortcomings I will say so. And I thank everybody who does the same, because it is the only way to get crucial information about sample libraries. Because at the moment I think the sample library business is deeply flawed.

As long as sample developers EULA’s are as they are now, we do need as many frank assessments we can get. We need as many people as re-peat, Guy, NoamL, AlexanderSchiborr, Daniel James, NYC Composer and others who are delving deep into libraries and showing us their findings. Not through the rose-tinted glasses of the many fanboys frequenting this forum. But by the point of view of seasoned professionals who don’t toy with these libraries, but depend on them as professional tools to earn a living.

isn't it relevant to first consider the nature of this expectation? im not saying its wrong to want samples, and trials...and some have done that to a degree. If i recall AmpleSound has done a free version of their software, and I think 8Dio had a few as well. It's not impossible, but its also not easy. its also incredibly risky for smaller developer groups. Anti-Piracy was a major focus for a lot of developers and trying to avoid software just being tossed around for free. Being able to resell is possible with valid license procedures but it can make support for resale products incredibly troublesome. There is a solution out there and the industry should consider what its options are, but i dont think its fair to say that the industry is somehow predatory just because it hasn't found a suitable method to satisfy everyones needs yet.

i dont mean to sound dismissive, but it just irks me sometimes because valid criticisms are often expressed in a tone that just comes off as hyperbolic around these parts.
 
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muk

Senior Member
It's a tricky one Daryl. If I am not mistaken Oracle argued that they don't sell the software, but a personal license to use it. Therefor it wasn't a tangible good and they don't have to facilitate a license transfer. The court didn't follow that line of argument. Now sample library developers are taking whata looks to me like a similar stance to Oracle: we don't sell a software consisting of recordings plus a code and GUI to use them in a certain way. No, we sell personal licenses to use our audio recordings. I see certain similarities to the Oracle case. But I am no lawyer and I don't know how the differences would affect the legal situation. In any case, as long as nobody tests these policies before court they have to be respected by customers.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
It's a tricky one Daryl. If I am not mistaken Oracle argued that they don't sell the software, but a personal license to use it. Therefor it wasn't a tangible good and they don't have to facilitate a license transfer. The court didn't follow that line of argument. Now sample library developers are taking whata looks to me like a similar stance to Oracle: we don't sell a software consisting of recordings plus a code and GUI to use them in a certain way. No, we sell personal licenses to use our audio recordings. I see certain similarities to the Oracle case. But I am no lawyer and I don't know how the differences would affect the legal situation. In any case, as long as nobody tests these policies before court they have to be respected by customers.
I would say that's a necessity for them to make sure people aren't just taking their recordings and making new libraries and reselling them. from an anti-piracy, legal standpoint their stance makes sense. Its a theme of the digital era. We aren't dealing with physical products now, so your only hope is to protect the intellectual property and its components. I know it sucks when compared to how we normally view our purchases in our day to day lives, but what other reasonable standard is there?
 

muk

Senior Member
@chocobitz825 I agree. Piracy is certainly a huge problem, and I agree that developers have a right to protect themselves. However, currently they are often offloading the complete risk on their customers. Take VSL as an example. They require their customers to use a dongle. The dongle has no practical use for the customer. It simply has to be there to protect VSL from piracy. That is completely fine in my opinion. What I don't agree with is that if a dongle is stolen, or destroyed in a fire, the customer has to rebuy the libraries. It puts all the risk on the customer. And VSL's solution is to sell an insurance to their customers! The right solution would be, in my opinion, for VSL to buy an insurance themselves that protects them from the losses through piracy. It should not be on the customer to insure themselves against a risk that VSL offloaded onto them.

Interestingly it's often the smaller developery that offer much more customer friendly policies.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
@chocobitz825 I agree. Piracy is certainly a huge problem, and I agree that developers have a right to protect themselves. However, currently they are often offloading the complete risk on their customers. Take VSL as an example. They require their customers to use a dongle. The dongle has no practical use for the customer. It simply has to be there to protect VSL from piracy. That is completely fine in my opinion. What I don't agree with is that if a dongle is stolen, or destroyed in a fire, the customer has to rebuy the libraries. It puts all the risk on the customer. And VSL's solution is to sell an insurance to their customers! The right solution would be, in my opinion, for VSL to buy an insurance themselves that protects them from the losses through piracy. It should not be on the customer to insure themselves against a risk that VSL offloaded onto them.

Interestingly it's often the smaller developery that offer much more customer friendly policies.

I totally agree. this has kept me out of VSL. I feel like iLok is the better alternative for this since iLok itself tends to have better options for the sake of the the customer. Still i feel like this is where the conversation breaks down. Developers say they'll do a dongle, and a lot of people say they absolutely won't buy if its a dongle system because its inconvenient. So then some do the official Kontakt method but put the additional cost into the product's retail price and people hate that too. I feel like where smaller developers get criticism is the price of their libraries, which i suspect end up a little bit higher in cost than usual because they dont have the protections and they're just hoping people will honestly buy and not pirate. i personally dont mind iLok anymore now that its offered a cloud option. I would be happy if more library trials were available with iLok.
 

Stanoli

Member
What a heap of neo-liberal bullshit......
As it stands, buyers are at a large disadvantage. They can’t properly assess a sample library before buying it, because most developers don’t make any sort of demo available.....
So no, I won’t let you shut me up......
But by the point of view of seasoned professionals who don’t toy with these libraries, but depend on them as professional tools to earn a living.
When you find it neo-liberal bullshit when I suggest to look at the the good things you get from Spitfire and other developers nowadays instead of whining about a resale policy, so be it.

And about not knowing what you get:
There are so many videos to watch and mp3 to listen to, I mean, really???
I never bought anything that I was diasappointed with after the proper research.

Well I am making a living with music and I do not want to shut you up
(It did not work anyway, did it?).
 
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