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Royalties and youtube

robharvey

Active Member
Hi there,


I recently provided most of the music to this video:


I provided it to the editor as favour and I'm totally ok with the music being used on the production companies YouTube channel. Absolutely no problems there.

The question I have is: Is there a performing rights organisation claim here?

I'm a little fuzzy with regards to YouTube plays and PRO and would be glad to hear your insights.


Thanks,
Rob
 

chrisr

Senior Member
I write for a kids tv series. Besides the broadcast episodes and films, there's a lot of youtube content on the brand channel. There are many episode excerpts and cutdowns, there are songs, there are mini "youtube only" stories, there are promos for the toys, there are educational items....etc etc...

I would guess that my music is on 300-400 "official" (english language) youtube clips, released by the production company and brand team. There's probably about the same again of fan created content (english language). There are official brand channels repeating most of the same content in 10 languages - so thousands of youtube videos in all.

The most popular videos I've scored have about 10-20million views each, the least popular have 10's of thousands. So the clips with my music have hundreds of millions of views in the english language and multiples of that when you include non-english versions. I would guess it's somewhere between half a billion to a billion views all told.

A few years ago I would take the time to input the info for the videos I'd scored to the PRS, using the deeply unimpressive youtube reporting app on their website, in the hope that something might trickle through. I'm afraid I don't bother anymore.

I don't think I've ever seen any royalty payments from youtube. Decided to stop worrying about it a couple of years back. I've never heard anything from the few PRS reps I've chatted with that's made me feel that they have any sort of a handle on it. I won't bore you with some of the mixed messages I've had from them - but it's always been quite disheartening.

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has had a different experience, for obvious reasons... Am still regularly churning out youtube content (which I am paid for by the production company/companies...). Contractually I always retain my 'writer's share' of any royalties, for what it's (not) worth.

best,
Chris
 

Greg

Senior Member
BMI
$200 per million views for pub and writer side for "Youtube Free"
$82 for 200k views for "Youtube Premium"

However they only seem to pay out on a fraction of my actual views when I compare it with content id. No clue why.
 

badabing

New Member
I had a situation where I approached a popular channel asking if they'd like to use my music, which they did, however as I was registered for Youtube royalty collection with CD Baby these videos generated a copyright claim due to the use of my tracks. I'd agreed that I just wanted to do this for exposure (this channel runs a fairly popular Spotify playlist) so I agreed to ask CD Baby to remove the claim. It took them a long time to do this however and I was amazed to see that I was earning hundreds of dollars a month until it was sorted, in total I think I made about $1200 from maybe three videos which used my tracks for 30 seconds each maximum? Other things I've written music for specifically to go on Youtube I've been paid an upfront fee and haven't registered for collection, which I think is fair, maybe, I'm not great with that side of things.
 

AlexRuger

rewgs
So, thousands of videos with billions of views nets $0, while 90 seconds of music nets $1200 in a few months. Got it.

I guess maybe the point of focus here is that, while PRO’s are next to useless, CD Baby/DistroKid can pay quite handsomely...but only if they think some someone is stealing your music?
 

chrisr

Senior Member
So, thousands of videos with billions of views nets $0, while 90 seconds of music nets $1200 in a few months. Got it.

Ha! - believe me I share your frustrations.

I'd be particularly interested to hear from fellow PRS members, as I suspect ASCAP/BMI might have their shit together on this particular issue, whereas PRS don't, in my experience.

I'm guessing OP @robharvey is a PRS member?
 

SamC

Sam
Hey @robharvey @AlexRuger, it really depends on what deal you signed with the creator/publisher - if at all? The way to collect money up to this point has been through Adrev, (placing ads on top of videos that contain your music). But that is only paid to the masters owner, not composer. Unless stated in your agreement. Look out for that! If it was a TV broadcast before upload, the Adrev for the composer is doubtful.

Onto Royalties; I’ve been complaining about streaming royalties (or lack thereof) for ages now and PRO’s are still twiddling their thumbs. Youtube has to be the worst, and most convoluted, monetarily speaking.

Streaming services like Youtube, Amazon & Netflix all try to claim they‘re not broadcasters so they‘re not subject to the copyright public performance laws for broadcasters.

Because of that, the normal performance royalty rates and calculations simply don’t apply. It’s actually a mechanical license they think they should be paying - conveniently because its hard collecting Mechanicals in the US and the mechanical is so low. In the UK there’s “MCPS” though (I’m a PRS member).

The mechanical royalty rate for streaming is 1.75 cents per minute. In decimal that is $0.0175. That is then split in half, with half going to the composer and half going to the publisher. So that’s $0.00875 per minute for the composer and $0.00875 per minute to the publisher. Don’t even get me started on how that is split further.

So you can see how screwed we’re getting. PRO’s stood idly by while streaming giants lobbied Congress for this nonsense and composers on their own wouldn’t be able to do much about that anyway (another reason we need a union IMO).

However, the Music Modernisation Act in the US looks very promising - The Songwriters of North America (SONA) sued the federal government over how congress calculates the mechanical royalty rate...and won. So now they can push legislation for how digital streaming royalties are calculated.

I hope we can move in a positive direction to getting equal compensation for online play. Composers all over the world will start seeing their backend shrink even more before there’s a change. More films are having online release, more people listening to music on youtube, the budgets aren’t growing, Networks are dying a slow death — I just hope the likes of Youtube and Netflix won’t put the final nail in the working composers coffin.
 
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Daryl

Senior Member
As an addendum, Netflix has actually been removing streaming "Royalty" rights from composer's contracts recently.
 

SamC

Sam
As an addendum, Netflix has actually been removing streaming "Royalty" rights from composer's contracts recently.

Yep! Not sure if they sense a losing battle with royalties but I think it’s made them nervous enough to just start buying out composer rights. I could actually learn to live with that if their music budgets shot way up, but it hasn’t and it won’t.
 

Dirk Ehlert

Dirk Ehlert
I just feel there needs to be some clarification here - especially in regards to this track make numbers and this one doesn't. It is undeniable that the PROs still have a long way to go to get a proper system in place with streaming providers like youtube. I have tons of music out there, that every quarter gets me a nice capuccino. So i feel there's room for improvement , haha. But back to the point, these vast differences in payouts are based on two very different collection systems - on the one hand you have the PROs (Performance Rights Organizations like BMI, ASCAP, GEMA) etc - collecting broadcast royalties - they are constantly negotiating with YT on behalf of their composers - to no much avail as of today.
But then you also have the system of ContentID (Adrev, CDBaby etc) that have nothing to do with the classical PRO system. They collect Advertising Revenue (hence the name Adrev) on uncleared/unlicensed or plainly "illegally used" content. If you have your music registered with these services, you'll get your share of that Advertising Revenue they collect on your behalf (the aforementioned 1.200 from CD Baby for example). A decent amount of views can rack up some serious numbers pretty fast, way more than any regular PRO is collecting. What I want to say is, that these are two entirely different revenue streams. There are quite a bunch of kinks with that system too - as it mainly is focussed on unlicensed usage. If you have that TV stuff streaming on YT you'll likely not seeing anything from Adrev and the likes, as it is a Licensed usage, meaning the advertising revenue goes to the content provider instead of Adrev (lots of problematic indications there as well, like unhappy clients because they get flagged for an actual licensed usage, that needs to be whitelisted etc.)

TL;DR
These differences in numbers are based on the fact that there are 2 entirely different revenue streams involved, one being classical broadcast royalties, the other one being Advertising Revenue royalties.
 
OP
robharvey

robharvey

Active Member
Thread starter
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Ha! - believe me I share your frustrations.

I'd be particularly interested to hear from fellow PRS members, as I suspect ASCAP/BMI might have their shit together on this particular issue, whereas PRS don't, in my experience.

I'm guessing OP @robharvey is a PRS member?

I am a PRS member yes. I agree with your sentiments about ASCAP etc. It might be more of an MCPS question over PRS?

Thanks for all the insights! I think basically it's not worth looking at.

Rob
 
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Spectralworks

New Member
YouTube will pay Royatlies. If you get a few million plays, you might be able to afford a cappuccino or two.
A song I wrote in 2009 ended up as a background theme in what became a popular kid's YouTube channel called #annoyingorange It has Hundreds of millions of views. The Song was Stolen/Renamed from me, there is a whole thread dedicated to explaining the whole ordeal of music/identity theft and fraud by a composer named Alex Khaskin
The problem is the royalties were paid out to the thief long ago. Can anyone please tell me at least a ballpark figure of what the scammer + adrev earned from something like that?
I know it's difficult to estimate? how do I even go about calculating it? They have over 3000 videos, going back 10 years...in some of the Episodes, my song plays for just 15 seconds, in others it goes on for 2min 30seconds, it's not standard..follows the story on the screen. some videos have 230 million views, while others have only 8 or 9 million views. Can anyone please share any advice?
Thank you all in advance for reading

link to MUSIC THEFT by Alex Khaskin
Ilya kaplan composer funny walk #annoyingorrang.jpg
 
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SamC

Sam
A song I wrote in 2009 ended up as a background theme in what became a popular kid's YouTube channel called #annoyingorange It has Hundreds of millions of views. The Song was Stolen/Renamed from me, there is a whole thread dedicated to explaining the whole ordeal of music/identity theft and fraud by a composer named Alex Khaskin
The problem is the royalties were paid out to the thief long ago. Can anyone please tell me at least a ballpark figure of what the scammer + adrev earned from something like that?
I know it's difficult to estimate? how do I even go about calculating it? They have over 3000 videos, going back 10 years...in some of the Episodes, my song plays for just 15 seconds, in others it goes on for 2min 30seconds, it's not standard..follows the story on the screen. some videos have 230 million views, while others have only 8 or 9 million views. Can anyone please share any advice?
Thank you all in advance for reading

link to MUSIC THEFT by Alex Khaskin
View attachment 43434
I imagine the royalties due to you won’t be an insignificant amount.

Does your track have a publisher assigned?
 

Spectralworks

New Member
I just came into an agreement with Identify ( who is like ADREV)
But prior to that the song (under my original title) was registered with my SOCAN by me in 2011
and 100 % of publishing and composing rights were legally mine
If you could please forward this to 2min 30sec, I talk about the papers and performing rights with the screenshots of my PRO showing ownership, the problem is, that I Convinced Adrev by shoving them that video. I don't know what name the thief retitled my song to, I can partially "poke in the dark" on scans Repertoire page, but Alex Khaskin (the composer who stole my song, ill just refer to him as Alex from now) renamed my song "funny walk" to " Funny Walk-14157" " cookie walk" "walking funny" "Silly walk" "silly walk -141517 ""cooky wak" etc..many other manes I'm assuming in order to confuse... I don't see any other reasons..so I'm stumped as to how to figure out the details.

I also found one version where under the youtube video it says the right belongs to
(on behalf of Salieri Music (Salieri Music Is the company that belongs to Alex Khaskin )); PEDL, Warner Chappell, AdRev Publishing, SODRAC, and 6 Music Rights Societies


These pages are just to prove that i own 100% of the rights to the titles I AM AWARE OF. I don't even know many different names Alex Khaskin or someone else may have given it
.

lalala cooky lala.JPG
 

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Spectralworks

New Member
The Short answer, and im ashamed to say this .. I DONT KNOW if my track has a publisher. Its been stolen and re-titled so many times
 
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SamC

Sam
I just came into an agreement with Identify ( who is like ADREV)
But prior to that the song (under my original title) was registered with my SOCAN by me in 2011
and 100 % of publishing and composing rights were legally mine
If you could please forward this to 2min 30sec, I talk about the papers and performing rights with the screenshots of my PRO showing ownership, the problem is, that I Convinced Adrev by shoving them that video. I don't know what name the thief retitled my song to, I can partially "poke in the dark" on scans Repertoire page, but Alex Khaskin (the composer who stole my song, ill just refer to him as Alex from now) renamed my song "funny walk" to " Funny Walk-14157" " cookie walk" "walking funny" "Silly walk" "silly walk -141517 ""cooky wak" etc..many other manes I'm assuming in order to confuse... I don't see any other reasons..so I'm stumped as to how to figure out the details.

I also found one version where under the youtube video it says the right belongs to
(on behalf of Salieri Music (Salieri Music Is the company that belongs to Alex Khaskin )); PEDL, Warner Chappell, AdRev Publishing, SODRAC, and 6 Music Rights Societies
View attachment 43440
how is Warner Chappell involved in my music I don't understand ...
I’ve had my stuff stolen by people. Something was lifted from my soundcloud - a track EMI owns the publishing to! - Someone just uploaded it to some buyout site like pond5. It was eventually resolved but I got nothing out of it. The “artists” profile was taken down but they already made money out of it for a good 4 years or so.

Since this Alex dude is a prolific thief, he probably stole your track and just submitted it as his own. Have you checked Warner Chappell’s library to see if it’s in there since they have a share?

It must be in a library somewhere being licensed with Alex as the artist.
 
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