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Real Talk On Sample Modeling Brass

0cme

New Member
But to me, it just looks too hard to use. (difficulty seems its at another level compared to regular samples)
It really isn't that hard, I've only just had it for a few days and am already getting way better results than I did with, say, Hollywood Brass. If anything in some ways it's easier, because there aren't the same sort of 'problem samples' you get with a regular sample library... note transitions that just don't sound right at the dynamic you want, etc. You aren't boxed in anymore.
 

Go To 11

Member
I've been studying the trumpet lately.

The trumpet has 15 Controllers (PB + CC's) and 25 keyswitches.

Most of these 40 parameters aren't needed in everyday usage, but it's better to have these options and not need them than to need them and not have them.

Samplemodeling has filled in the void of parameters I always felt were missing on sample-based, non-modelled instruments. So while there is a hefty amount of tools to use, that only helps get the exact results you want. This thing is really thorough.

Also, I don't get the complaint about the anechoic sound. I consider it a blessing. Sound happens in 3 stages, 1) direct sound 2) early reflections and 3) predelay/late reflections. Samplemodeling provides the direct sound, a reverb provides the early reflections and late reflections (Early=less than 30ms, Late=more than 30ms). Recording a trumpet in an ambient room and then auxing it to Altiverb = 2 sets of ER's; the ER captured in the trumpet mic and the ER captured in the impulse response. The most accurate results for realism would be to record anechoically and then add convolution reverb (ultrarealism=multi-convolution). And when I do that it sounds fantastic to me. Maybe people are used to working with samples recorded with ER's and then further adding reverb to that. But imo, recording anechoically is the most logical means to getting the most realistic results. You can't remove an ER once it's been recorded. But you can always add ER's to an anechoic recording.
Personally, I've never been able to get a 'big' sound out of Sample Modelling brass. It always just sounds like reverb being added to a close mic'd brass section. There is never any 'real' sense of room, and no low end information. It's just not there, so no matter how much reverb I add, it will never arrive. Have you, or anyone here ever got Sample Modeling to sound as big as say Cinebrass or CSB or Berlin Brass? I just can't get that low end. It just sounds squeaky. AFAIK, the brass 'sound' is heavily dependent on the room its recorded in, more so than other instruments. Look forward to a solution if there is one, to access that low end information, if it exists.
 

LHall

Active Member
I've had really good results using VSS2. You can place them on one of several stages in any position, pick the mic setup, etc. Then I use Spaces II for the longer tail. Vienna has a similar tool but I don't have that. VSS2 is a pretty amazing tool. http://virtualsoundstage.com
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
I've been studying the trumpet lately.

The trumpet has 15 Controllers (PB + CC's) and 25 keyswitches.

Most of these 40 parameters aren't needed in everyday usage, but it's better to have these options and not need them than to need them and not have them.

Samplemodeling has filled in the void of parameters I always felt were missing on sample-based, non-modelled instruments. So while there is a hefty amount of tools to use, that only helps get the exact results you want. This thing is really thorough.

Also, I don't get the complaint about the anechoic sound. I consider it a blessing. Sound happens in 3 stages, 1) direct sound 2) early reflections and 3) predelay/late reflections. Samplemodeling provides the direct sound, a reverb provides the early reflections and late reflections (Early=less than 30ms, Late=more than 30ms). Recording a trumpet in an ambient room and then auxing it to Altiverb = 2 sets of ER's; the ER captured in the trumpet mic and the ER captured in the impulse response. The most accurate results for realism would be to record anechoically and then add convolution reverb (ultrarealism=multi-convolution). And when I do that it sounds fantastic to me. Maybe people are used to working with samples recorded with ER's and then further adding reverb to that. But imo, recording anechoically is the most logical means to getting the most realistic results. You can't remove an ER once it's been recorded. But you can always add ER's to an anechoic recording.
in theory it's great - in practice - it's not.

Also very hard to provide low end that wasn't actually there to begin with - something that occurs in real life.
 

Virtual Virgin

Active Member
I think they are great sounding instruments and I would highly recommend them.

I use them with a breath controller and run them through Vienna MIR Pro.

I have only used them as solo instruments, so I cannot speak for section building with them, but the expressiveness available through a fluid morphology between states is very attractive compared to all of the crossfading problems inherent with discrete sample sets. You can custom tailor articulations much better.

There is a learning curve however, so RT*M.
 

Rilla

New Member
Personally, I've never been able to get a 'big' sound out of Sample Modelling brass. It always just sounds like reverb being added to a close mic'd brass section. There is never any 'real' sense of room, and no low end information. It's just not there, so no matter how much reverb I add, it will never arrive. Have you, or anyone here ever got Sample Modeling to sound as big as say Cinebrass or CSB or Berlin Brass? I just can't get that low end. It just sounds squeaky. AFAIK, the brass 'sound' is heavily dependent on the room its recorded in, more so than other instruments. Look forward to a solution if there is one, to access that low end information, if it exists.
I think the room, mics and preamps play a HUGE part as to why it might be difficult to make SM sound exactly like the ones you mentioned. Its not impossible however. Depending on your skills it might be easy.
 

I like music

Senior Member
Was listening to a lot of those 'masterclass' type videos on youtube lately, and I realised that libraries and film scores had (to some extent) really changed my perception and memory of what these brass instruments sound like in more intimate environment. Check out the Sarah Willis French Horn masterclasses. The horn sounds very different to how I had come to know it after listening to those lush scores.
 

Go To 11

Member
Here's a snippet of a mockup I did for another composer using SM Brass and VSS2

This is a really great track, thanks. I still hear a lot of that squeaky top end that I get with SM and not much bottom end. Granted though this is some of the best SM Brass I've heard!
 

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
I really like the sound of the first several seconds.
I didn't know Sample Modeling could get that huge thick sound on its own.

I assume it took a lot of work to get there.
Not that much.. it took me like 2-3 hours or something. I have improved the sound quite a bit also in a newer version. I think this was patch version 3, now I have version 4.
 

Henu

Senior Member
actually that I find not easy as well therefore I was spending again some time to build the sound from scratch. What do you think?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/19oexd1e97h5tbf/AACec_LGO5S4TgooySD9MSU7a?dl=0
I like it! Especially the small pitch fluctuation. :) Do you happen to have a polyphonic version you could share as well? I'm currently fooling around with LASS ER IR's (jesus this abbreviation monster :D ) and I think the solo horn starts to be where it should be. Can post some results later when I'm done!
 

Mark Schmieder

Senior Member
As I've been finalizing some jazz projects this week, I revisited a few tracks where I wasn't thrilled with the timbral balance between The Trumpet and The Trombone, and found in a few instances that the Bass Trombone did the trick. The range is similar but the timbre is quite different; less splatty. Sometimes that's what you need to better blend with other winds. Don't forget the Bass Trombone; many do not know or understand the instrument. The Contrabass is the one that is actually lower in overall pitch range.

From Wiki:

"The modern bass trombone is pitched in B♭. Its tubing length of 9 feet (2.7 m) is identical to that of the tenor trombone, but it has a wider bore, a larger bell, and a larger mouthpiece. These features generate an overall darker, weightier tone that speaks with a more assured authority in lower registers when compared to the tenor trombone."

As for the Tuba, for consistency's sake I replaced my VSL Tuba on one track with Sample Modeling, and had to work at it a bit as the articulations and phrasing are not quite as realistic as the laborious work done with VSL key switches, but overall the timbre and especially the controllable vibrato, sound more realistic in the jazz context and blend better with The Trumpet and The Trombone.

I also have one Orchestral Horn part in one of the jazz songs, and The French Horn got used vs. VSL. It's actually a very expressive instrument with a warm and natural timbre that doesn't get splatty.
 
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JPQ

Senior Member
breath controlers are not for me does this work with Roli seaboard as well? i think which such i can similar expression. more parameters than single note with velocity and maye aftertouch and modwheel.
 

Rilla

New Member
As I've been finalizing some jazz projects this week, I revisited a few tracks where I wasn't thrilled with the timbral balance between The Trumpet and The Trombone, and found in a few instances that the Bass Trombone did the trick. The range is similar but the timbre is quite different; less splatty. Sometimes that's what you need to better blend with other winds. Don't forget the Bass Trombone; many do not know or understand the instrument. The Contrabass is the one that is actually lower in overall pitch range.

From Wiki:

"The modern bass trombone is pitched in B♭. Its tubing length of 9 feet (2.7 m) is identical to that of the tenor trombone, but it has a wider bore, a larger bell, and a larger mouthpiece. These features generate an overall darker, weightier tone that speaks with a more assured authority in lower registers when compared to the tenor trombone."

As for the Tuba, for consistency's sake I replaced my VSL Tuba on one track with Sample Modeling, and had to work at it a bit as the articulations and phrasing are not quite as realistic as the laborious work done with VSL key switches, but overall the timbre and especially the controllable vibrato, sound more realistic in the jazz context and blend better with The Trumpet and The Trombone.

I also have one Orchestral Horn part in one of the jazz songs, and The French Horn got used vs. VSL. It's actually a very expressive instrument with a warm and natural timbre that doesn't get splatty.
Nice....although ain't nothin wrong with a lil splat.
 
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