What's new

Real Talk On Sample Modeling Brass

ag75

Active Member
I think sample modeling is only truly good when used with a breath controller. The amount of realism you can achieve with that combo is pretty incredible.
 

bflat

New Member

I came across this some time ago this is the sax, but you can get the idea of feel and expression, and realisem from this sample modeling vst Instrument

Gives an idea of how far samples can be pushed.
This is not Samplemodeling, this is the SWAM engine by Audio Modeling.
I think there is a lot of confusion about Samplemodeling vs Audio Modeling vs SWAM. This FAQ by Audio Modeling clarifies everything: http://www.swamengine.com/support/kb/faq.php?id=43
 
SM brass is amazing, and has completely killed my GAS for any other brass libraries. I use it either with a breath controller + Linnstrument or with an eigenharp, and put it in VSL MIR pro for ambience. Unless SWAM come out with a brass library, I doubt I'll ever buy another brass library.
 

Monkberry

Member
This is not Samplemodeling, this is the SWAM engine by Audio Modeling.
I think there is a lot of confusion about Samplemodeling vs Audio Modeling vs SWAM. This FAQ by Audio Modeling clarifies everything: http://www.swamengine.com/support/kb/faq.php?id=43
Thanks for that link. I'm about to pull the trigger on SWAM Saxophones by Audio Modeling and I had some residual fears that I was springing for the wrong product. This resolved it.
 

Peter Siedlaczek

Samplemodeling
Dear Friends,

let me chime in here, since the topic of the "epic sound" vs. our brass comes back from time to time :).

You certainly agree that a big, bombastic brass sound depends also very much on how the score is written and played. The fullest brass sound is certainly not the sound achieved by playing just maximum fortissimo. Any close mic´ed brass instrument, if played ff, will have a "thinner" sound than if playing just forte or even mf. That´s completely normal. Especially if it´s dry. A well done orchestration/voicing, plus the right articulation and a suitable amount of the appropriate ambience will in most cases do the trick. And our instruments will simply follow what the player wants :) . For example:


or


You might agree that the brass in these examples (as well as in other relevant examples on our demo pages) does not sound "thin", does it?

There is also a phenomenon of the playing fatigue, or rather the lack of it. Playing the highest dynamics on our instruments does not require any particular effort, as it does in case of real instruments. Consequently, many MIDI performances may tend a bit toward a thinner ff sound, because it´s so easy to get there... Just a hypothesis. I would like to encourage interested users to experiment a lot with the orchestration/voicing and ambience, and to analyze some very well known scores/examples, to find out more about the impact of the orchestration on sound. This is quite important in case of our brass, because it plays what the user wants, not what has been sampled.

Thank you for your attention :)

Peter
 

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Dear Friends,

let me chime in here, since the topic of the "epic sound" vs. our brass comes back from time to time :).

You certainly agree that a big, bombastic brass sound depends also very much on how the score is written and played. The fullest brass sound is certainly not the sound achieved by playing just maximum fortissimo. Any close mic´ed brass instrument, if played ff, will have a "thinner" sound than if playing just forte or even mf. That´s completely normal. Especially if it´s dry. A well done orchestration/voicing, plus the right articulation and a suitable amount of the appropriate ambience will in most cases do the trick. And our instruments will simply follow what the player wants :) . For example:


or


You might agree that the brass in these examples (as well as in other relevant examples on our demo pages) does not sound "thin", does it?

There is also a phenomenon of the playing fatigue, or rather the lack of it. Playing the highest dynamics on our instruments does not require any particular effort, as it does in case of real instruments. Consequently, many MIDI performances may tend a bit toward a thinner ff sound, because it´s so easy to get there... Just a hypothesis. I would like to encourage interested users to experiment a lot with the orchestration/voicing and ambience, and to analyze some very well known scores/examples, to find out more about the impact of the orchestration on sound. This is quite important in case of our brass, because it plays what the user wants, not what has been sampled.

Thank you for your attention :)

Peter
Oh lemme chime in here .Two good examples where sm shines, but how is that achieved. Besides these 2 examples I didn´t heard any other example of convincing sample modeling which were near like that 2 examples. Both of those examples require a shitload of post production, experience and much more what most of the folks here are not knowing how to do so. This library for such a context is "find it out yourself" which is incredibly time consuming and incredibly hard to achieve. Actually besides those 2 examples I never heard a convincing sm orchestral track in such vibrant energetic context music. Some users achieved quite "ok" results but nothing near like that. But I think many orchestral users would like to know how get the most sound out of such product when they buy it ecspecially because sm is ass dry and you just can´t dial in an ambient micing and there you are. No, So you have to create step by step this believable space and therein I see the problem: It is extremely hard and I am not sure if that worth the time as well. I think Sm is good for soloing and all that Jazz and big band stuff though.
 

leon chevalier

Piano roll musician
Dear Friends,

let me chime in here, since the topic of the "epic sound" vs. our brass comes back from time to time :).

You certainly agree that a big, bombastic brass sound depends also very much on how the score is written and played. The fullest brass sound is certainly not the sound achieved by playing just maximum fortissimo. Any close mic´ed brass instrument, if played ff, will have a "thinner" sound than if playing just forte or even mf. That´s completely normal. Especially if it´s dry. A well done orchestration/voicing, plus the right articulation and a suitable amount of the appropriate ambience will in most cases do the trick. And our instruments will simply follow what the player wants :) . For example:


or


You might agree that the brass in these examples (as well as in other relevant examples on our demo pages) does not sound "thin", does it?

There is also a phenomenon of the playing fatigue, or rather the lack of it. Playing the highest dynamics on our instruments does not require any particular effort, as it does in case of real instruments. Consequently, many MIDI performances may tend a bit toward a thinner ff sound, because it´s so easy to get there... Just a hypothesis. I would like to encourage interested users to experiment a lot with the orchestration/voicing and ambience, and to analyze some very well known scores/examples, to find out more about the impact of the orchestration on sound. This is quite important in case of our brass, because it plays what the user wants, not what has been sampled.

Thank you for your attention :)

Peter
Thanks for chiming in ! It always great when devs come to talk about the products !
 

Geocranium

Active Member
Oh lemme chime in here .Two good examples where sm shines, but how is that achieved. Besides these 2 examples I didn´t heard any other example of convincing sample modeling which were near like that 2 examples. Both of those examples require a shitload of post production, experience and much more what most of the folks here are not knowing how to do so. This library for such a context is "find it out yourself" which is incredibly time consuming and incredibly hard to achieve. Actually besides those 2 examples I never heard a convincing sm orchestral track in such vibrant energetic context music. Some users achieved quite "ok" results but nothing near like that. But I think many orchestral users would like to know how get the most sound out of such product when they buy it ecspecially because sm is ass dry and you just can´t dial in an ambient micing and there you are. No, So you have to create step by step this believable space and therein I see the problem: It is extremely hard and I am not sure if that worth the time as well. I think Sm is good for soloing and all that Jazz and big band stuff though.
My thoughts exactly. I've listened to those tracks by SampleControl many times before, and I have still yet to find *any* other SM brass examples that even come close to that sound. There is some real post-production magic going on there, as well as great orchestration. However, for 99.9% of media composers, they will never be able to achieve a sound like that with only SM brass without serious knowledge of post production, an ample amount of effects, and a golden ear. There are even videos on SampleControl's Youtube page showing how SM mixes with Altiverb well, yet no one but SampleControl has ever come close to those Star Wars videos.

If someone can show me any other example of SM brass sounding that beautiful and alive in an orchestral context, I'd love to hear it. But right now, that sound is pretty much mythical for anyone jumping into these samples.
 

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
My thoughts exactly. I've listened to those tracks by SampleControl many times before, and I have still yet to find *any* other SM brass examples that even come close to that sound. There is some real post-production magic going on there, as well as great orchestration. However, for 99.9% of media composers, they will never be able to achieve a sound like that with only SM brass without serious knowledge of post production, an ample amount of effects, and a golden ear. There are even videos on SampleControl's Youtube page showing how SM mixes with Altiverb well, yet no one but SampleControl has ever come close to those Star Wars videos.

If someone can show me any other example of SM brass sounding that beautiful and alive in an orchestral context, I'd love to hear it. But right now, that sound is pretty much mythical for anyone jumping into these samples.
Yepp and that is what I actually find problematic when Peter S. posts that to tell the crowd here: Look Sm can sound like that. But the reality is: Nobody gets a sound of out it like that, not even near like that. And such post is missleading because it lets people believe that if they buy the product then they can make this sound happen, in theory yes. But most of the stuff I hear from users using sm brass for such context sound harsh with a fake space and utterly gross. But not because the people suck, no but because I believe that it seems to be insanely hard work with sm brass on post production. And I talked to a few guys who use sm on a regular base and they commit in that regards. Maybe the company of sm brass should provide some tutorials how to use sm brass in different context. I mean especially with such of special product? At least I always felt that the lack of legit information prevented me gain greater interested towards sm.
 
Last edited:

Lotias

Active Member
I don't believe that spatializing a dry source is nearly as hard as everyone here keeps complaining. There are many, many resources on the internet for successfully doing so.
Comments on this video also recommend using a convolution reverb rather than algorithmic. The video itself essentially suggests only using the wet signal from the reverb. You could also try using something like MIR. There are other ways of trying to spatialize it, but this video is from the same source as the Star Wars theme.

The creator of the Star Wars mockup mentions they used EQ and Altiverb - two effects, which are not nearly as much as the 'ample amount of effects' someone claimed you need.

The rest is articulation & dynamics, which the Samplemodeling guy touched on.
 

novaburst

Senior Member
it lets people believe that if they buy the product then they can make this sound happen, in theory yes. But most of the stuff I hear from users using sm brass for such context sound harsh with a fake space and utterly gross. But not because the people suck, no but because I believe that it seems to be insanely hard work with sm brass on post production.
I think the same can be said about a real brass instrument those who give the time and work hard can make the instrument sound great, but those who give little time and are not prepared to work at it, there playing sounds a little lame.

I have always said the more real a sample instrument sounds the harder work it is going to take to use it learn it, more time for it because that = realism
 

LHall

Active Member
Exactly Novaburst. I use SM/AM every day. Yes, it takes a little work - not as much now that I kind of have my template down. But the work is worth it. I totally disagree that no one else than SampleControl has ever made SM Brass sound great. Rather insulting actually. Speaking for those of us who have spent a lifetime working, studying, learning, crafting, practicing - I'm glad that there are still some things out there that require some work and thought. Too many want instant pro results these days without putting in the work. That's why there's so much really really bad music out there.
 

Geocranium

Active Member
I don't believe that spatializing a dry source is nearly as hard as everyone here keeps complaining. There are many, many resources on the internet for successfully doing so.
Comments on this video also recommend using a convolution reverb rather than algorithmic. The video itself essentially suggests only using the wet signal from the reverb. You could also try using something like MIR. There are other ways of trying to spatialize it, but this video is from the same source as the Star Wars theme.

The creator of the Star Wars mockup mentions they used EQ and Altiverb - two effects, which are not nearly as much as the 'ample amount of effects' someone claimed you need.

The rest is articulation & dynamics, which the Samplemodeling guy touched on.
Yes, I've seen that video before, and I understand the concepts. That doesn't change the fact that no one but SampleControl has ever actually achieved something that sounds that good.

It's also one thing to make a dry source sound wet and positioned properly, but an entirely different thing to create an ensemble that sounds so thoroughly convincing. SM usually fails at the second part.
 

Geocranium

Active Member
Exactly Novaburst. I use SM/AM every day. Yes, it takes a little work - not as much now that I kind of have my template down. But the work is worth it. I totally disagree that no one else than SampleControl has ever made SM Brass sound great. Rather insulting actually. Speaking for those of us who have spent a lifetime working, studying, learning, crafting, practicing - I'm glad that there are still some things out there that require some work and thought. Too many want instant pro results these days without putting in the work. That's why there's so much really really bad music out there.
Please link me or point me to the direction of an orchestral piece, using only SM brass, that sounds as good as the SampleControl videos. There may very well be others out there, but I haven't heard them.
 

Casiquire

Senior Member
I have to disagree with some of the sentiments here. It takes very little post production magic, it takes few effects to make SM brass sound good. What it does take are different skills: good performances and good knowledge of orchestration. It takes more work and knowledge of brass to get a good performance out of the instruments in the first place.
 

novaburst

Senior Member
Please link me or point me to the direction of an orchestral piece, using only SM brass, that sounds as good as the SampleControl videos. There may very well be others out there, but I haven't heard them.
I think it's best to check out what @Peter Siedlaczek is saying.

The fullest brass sound is certainly not the sound achieved by playing just maximum fortissimo. Any close mic´ed brass instrument, if played ff, will have a "thinner" sound than if playing just forte or even mf. That´s completely normal. Especially if it´s dry. A well done orchestration/voicing, plus the right articulation and a suitable amount of the appropriate ambience
Some good tips

would like to encourage interested users to experiment a lot with the orchestration/voicing and ambience, and to analyze some very well known scores/examples, to find out more about the impact of the orchestration on sound. This is quite important in case of our brass, because it plays what the user wants, not what has been sampled.
Again some great advice

The very least any one who has this brass should follow some of these tips.
 

Geocranium

Active Member
My ultimate point is the same as Alexander's: advertising SM brass's capabilities by showing off those videos made by SampleControl is a little bit dishonest, because no one is going to actually be capable of achieving that sound. It'd be like advertising After Effects by showing one of Cyriak's animations. Does he do them all in After Effects? Yes, but he is a truly one-of-a-kind talented individual, and so far really the only person known that's capable of creating the things that he does.

Technically yes, it is possible. But I'm willing to bet a decent sum of money that no one will ever touch a sound like that with only SM brass. It's just not realistic. And if you disagree with that, someone PLEASE link me to another orchestral piece with SM brass that sounds just as good. I'd really love to hear it, because great orchestral mockups are something that I truly appreciate.
 

Geocranium

Active Member
Exactly Novaburst. I use SM/AM every day. Yes, it takes a little work - not as much now that I kind of have my template down. But the work is worth it. I totally disagree that no one else than SampleControl has ever made SM Brass sound great. Rather insulting actually. Speaking for those of us who have spent a lifetime working, studying, learning, crafting, practicing - I'm glad that there are still some things out there that require some work and thought. Too many want instant pro results these days without putting in the work. That's why there's so much really really bad music out there.
I do not mean this as an insult, but the tracks on your website that use SM brass (the first two on the homepage) don't come close to the sound that SampleControl has. They sound fantastic in their own right, but SampleControl is simply on another level. It's great music, but I can tell it's all done via samples, while on the other hand, SampleControl really begins to blur that line. It's an amazing talent that only very few can realistically achieve.
 
Top Bottom