What's new

Quick look at VSL Synchron Woodwinds

Nico Schuele

Tolerated Member
Hey all. I've had VSL Synchron Woodwinds for a while but never got around to dive into it. It is now done and here are my findings in under 10 minutes. Oh, and this marks the triumphant return of Bob in the narrator seat!





00:00 Intro
00:47 What to expect in this video
01:12 The Synchron Player
01:32 Let's hear a note and compare it
02:24 Let's hear some more notes
03:19 Flexibility. That's where it is.
04:19 Testing it in a real-world scenario
05:01 Straightforward mixing
05:25 Demo track: Lux Fugit
07:33 Conclusion
 
Still.... that other library from another developer sound better overall :) Even if not perfect, it's alive, it's a lovely tone... and well.. better.. :) Actually i think the Vi/Synchron-ized woodwinds sound more alive than synchron woodwinds.
So what you tried to explain, didn't work out well in your example :P
 
Still.... that other library from another developer sound better overall :) Even if not perfect, it's alive, it's a lovely tone... and well.. better.. :) Actually i think the Vi/Synchron-ized woodwinds sound more alive than synchron woodwinds.
So what you tried to explain, didn't work out well in your example :P

Well, that's exactly the point actually: you can't make it sound different and thus you will have to write for it rather than with it. In the hands of great mock-up artists, Synchron Woodwinds can be made to sound a lot closer to the real thing. Check the official demos to see what I mean 😊
 
Well, that's exactly the point actually: you can't make it sound different and thus you will have to write for it rather than with it. In the hands of great mock-up artists, Synchron Woodwinds can be made to sound a lot closer to the real thing. Check the official demos to see what I mean 😊
Yes, i did listen to them.. and also watched the user demo's tips etc.. reviews what have you not.
Because, i was actually planning to buy into the synchron series.. but the woodwinds are not appealing to my ears.. while the VI/sychron-ized version sounds a lot more convincing when comparing (although still it sounds too sterile in most demos, it's better)
Same for the Brass, the solo horn 1 is really weak (too brassy too quickly), horn 2 is meh (better tone evolvement, but the legato is well.. not that great).. and well.. that's a bad thing for VSL. Instead of step up, it seems a step down with their synchron series (no matter the control options).

In the end i'd rather play/sequence "for" sample patches, knowing it sounds good/alive/rich *thus enjoying it*.. than a clinical and boring but close to (albeit emotionless) real instruments precise emulation sound. little imperfections is key to have an emotionfull performance.
 
Last edited:
Yes, i did listen to them.. and also watched the user demo's tips etc.. reviews what have you not.
Because, i was actually planning to buy into the synchron series.. but the woodwinds are not appealing to my ears.. while the VI/sychron-ized version sounds a lot more convincing when comparing (although still it sounds too sterile in most demos, it's better)
Same for the Brass, the solo horn 1 is really weak, horn 2 is meh.. and well.. that's a bad thing for VSL. Instead of step up, it seems a step down.

I'd be curious to know what do you use primarily for brass, then as Synchron Brass is my go-to brass lib for most things. And if you have an example to go with it, it would be awesome!
 
I'd be curious to know what do you use primarily for brass, then as Synchron Brass is my go-to brass lib for most things. And if you have an example to go with it, it would be awesome!
somehow i knew you would go that route :)

i find my newly bought SSB pro (outriggers!) having a very nice tone, and enough control for what i need.
In case i need, i can layer with BBC SO core (not the horns though), SStB Pro (some very nice gems in there), Adventure Brass has some real nice tricks (needs some reverb), or even (for me the last resort) Chriss Hein Orchestral Brass (though it needs a lot of post processing to fit the rest and is harder to achief things sonically because of the complex workflow: but that's me! others do like it). I don't have examples currently. They all sound alive from the get go..(albeit some dry and/or mono)

having said that: it is not the point i try to get across with my earlier comments:

My point is: clinical perfect emulation of a real instrument (which is what vsl aims), is nice to have, but.. in the majority (even official ones) demos i've heard with the synchron brass/woodwinds, it is sounding good..but it's still missing something: warmth/being alive.
Most libraries from other developers often have a more alive sound (as you demonstrated), making it sound overall more pleasing to the ears AND it remains joyful to play with them too (immediate emotion under the keys).. even if it's not perfect. An average human won't notice it, but they will notice being too clean/cold or warm sounding. People are enjoying the latter better mostly.

Anyway.. not to attack you, or the library from VSL. (although it might sound like i am.. i am not!)
I appreciate your time to make the video, the thought you have on having full control vs baked in samples... I just well, agree and disagree on the matter in relation to specifically Synchron Woodwinds. :)

Just to note: i was seriously researching the synchron series, during december last year.
But came to the conclusion (after hours and hours of listening/reading/watching), it was not the way to go at this point sonically. Maybe they will fix the libs this year.. so the problem are resolved.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: AEF
somehow i knew you would go that route :)

[...] I don't have examples currently.

Just to be clear and to make sure that it is not taken the wrong way, I need to explain my train of thoughts a little bit further:

I've noticed that I used to be a VI C junkie. Having the forum on speed dial, reading it multiple times per day. Following advice left and right. In the more recent months, I've also noticed that I don't visit it as much as I used to and I think that I pinpointed the reason. Each time there's a discussion on a library, there are pages and pages of words and opinions, advice on making it sound better or explanation on why it is broken. I started to notice a correlation between how vocal some people are compared to what they share (which is often nothing.) It's really hard to navigate through this and form an opinion. It's the age old question of establishing trust. Again, this is not an attack of any kind, just a realization that I have.

It's much easier to form an opinion when all these words are backed by examples. Sometimes, an example is provided to illustrate a negative point and you can clearly hear that the person doesn't have any clue on how to program MIDI as it was recently the case in the Appassionata thread. At least, you get a sense of how people use it, if the problem lies with the library or simply how it is handled. Some people, I try to emulate their sound as well because they are so very skilled.

I'm not particularly skilled in MIDI programming, that's why I provide examples so that people can figure out if they can relate to what I say or if what I'm showing sounds crap and newbish to them.

If I can be so bold as to use your example: 10 paragraphs of explanation on why VSL sound sterile, owning 5 (expensive) brass libraries and yet not a single finished track to share. What am I to make of this? What is anyone to make of this? Is there really a problem with VSL in the first place? You seem to think so as you say that "maybe they will fix the lib." I find it unfair both the people reading and the developer working tirelessly to make a product the best they can (I know several of the people at VSL, they are fantastic human beings.)

My point is: clinical perfect emulation of a real instrument (which is what vsl aims)

Not only that: they strive to give the musician as much flexibility as possible. Often times, I find that the lack of "warmth", "emotion", or whatever we call it comes from the person programming the MIDI rather than from the library itself. Not saying this is the case here, nor that I can make the library sing (far from it.)

Just to note: i was seriously researching the synchron series

That's another great point with VSL: instead of researching forever, you can simply download a fully functional demo and play with it to see if it suits your taste and workflow. They even accept refunds! I should have mentioned that in my video, I forgot.

Anyway.. not to attack you

Same here. Just explaining my point of view :)

What is the other library? It sounds lovely.

As I want to keep the focus on Synchron WW in these comments, the name of the other library is irrelevant as it only served to illustrate my point. Just know that it is a MUCH more expensive library, yet a lot less flexible for the way I want to use a library :)
 
Just to be clear and to make sure that it is not taken the wrong way, I need to explain my train of thoughts a little bit further:

I've noticed that I used to be a VI C junkie. Having the forum on speed dial, reading it multiple times per day. Following advice left and right. In the more recent months, I've also noticed that I don't visit it as much as I used to and I think that I pinpointed the reason. Each time there's a discussion on a library, there are pages and pages of words and opinions, advice on making it sound better or explanation on why it is broken. I started to notice a correlation between how vocal some people are compared to what they share (which is often nothing.) It's really hard to navigate through this and form an opinion. It's the age old question of establishing trust. Again, this is not an attack of any kind, just a realization that I have.

It's much easier to form an opinion when all these words are backed by examples. Sometimes, an example is provided to illustrate a negative point and you can clearly hear that the person doesn't have any clue on how to program MIDI as it was recently the case in the Appassionata thread. At least, you get a sense of how people use it, if the problem lies with the library or simply how it is handled. Some people, I try to emulate their sound as well because they are so very skilled.

I'm not particularly skilled in MIDI programming, that's why I provide examples so that people can figure out if they can relate to what I say or if what I'm showing sounds crap and newbish to them.

If I can be so bold as to use your example: 10 paragraphs of explanation on why VSL sound sterile, owning 5 (expensive) brass libraries and yet not a single finished track to share. What am I to make of this? What is anyone to make of this? Is there really a problem with VSL in the first place? You seem to think so as you say that "maybe they will fix the lib." I find it unfair both the people reading and the developer working tirelessly to make a product the best they can (I know several of the people at VSL, they are fantastic human beings.)



Not only that: they strive to give the musician as much flexibility as possible. Often times, I find that the lack of "warmth", "emotion", or whatever we call it comes from the person programming the MIDI rather than from the library itself. Not saying this is the case here, nor that I can make the library sing (far from it.)



That's another great point with VSL: instead of researching forever, you can simply download a fully functional demo and play with it to see if it suits your taste and workflow. They even accept refunds! I should have mentioned that in my video, I forgot.



Same here. Just explaining my point of view :)



As I want to keep the focus on Synchron WW in these comments, the name of the other library is irrelevant as it only served to illustrate my point. Just know that it is a MUCH more expensive library, yet a lot less flexible for the way I want to use a library :)
ah ok, now i understand thought behind it. and i agree in part. i shall reply in more depth tomorrow, typing on a tablet now and its cumbersome
 
Last edited:
Just know that it is a MUCH more expensive library, yet a lot less flexible for the way I want to use a library :)
Ah ha! There's only one developer more expensive than VSL...it must be Berlin Woodwinds! :dancer:

One feature I really like in VSL Synchron Woodwinds, but especially in Synchron Brass is Timbre Adjust. A lot of libraries, even with crossfading, have issues between dynamic layers or the distance between the recorded dynamic layers. Timbre Adjust is a great way to help smooth that out and give you a nice gradient from pp to ff.

The thread I started on programming brass for the Olympic Fanfare is a good example of both folks putting their skills to the test instead of just making big claims...and the realization that some folks that make big claims are pretty poor users and programmers of sample libraries (not saying that of anybody who has responded to this thread btw). I will note that Synchron Brass had one of the better and most favorably received mockups in that thread - and Spitfire Symphonic Brass, for all of its strengths, was not a good choice for that piece.

Nice demo piece here @Akarin - or should I say Bob. We know who's doing the real work.
 
Great video, Nico. Glad to see Bob back and appreciate some humor thrown in there. Music piece was great.

Just to be clear and to make sure that it is not taken the wrong way, I need to explain my train of thoughts a little bit further:

I've noticed that I used to be a VI C junkie. Having the forum on speed dial, reading it multiple times per day. Following advice left and right. In the more recent months, I've also noticed that I don't visit it as much as I used to and I think that I pinpointed the reason. Each time there's a discussion on a library, there are pages and pages of words and opinions, advice on making it sound better or explanation on why it is broken. I started to notice a correlation between how vocal some people are compared to what they share (which is often nothing.) It's really hard to navigate through this and form an opinion. It's the age old question of establishing trust. Again, this is not an attack of any kind, just a realization that I have.

It's much easier to form an opinion when all these words are backed by examples. Sometimes, an example is provided to illustrate a negative point and you can clearly hear that the person doesn't have any clue on how to program MIDI as it was recently the case in the Appassionata thread. At least, you get a sense of how people use it, if the problem lies with the library or simply how it is handled. Some people, I try to emulate their sound as well because they are so very skilled.

I'm not particularly skilled in MIDI programming, that's why I provide examples so that people can figure out if they can relate to what I say or if what I'm showing sounds crap and newbish to them.

If I can be so bold as to use your example: 10 paragraphs of explanation on why VSL sound sterile, owning 5 (expensive) brass libraries and yet not a single finished track to share. What am I to make of this? What is anyone to make of this? Is there really a problem with VSL in the first place? You seem to think so as you say that "maybe they will fix the lib." I find it unfair both the people reading and the developer working tirelessly to make a product the best they can (I know several of the people at VSL, they are fantastic human beings.)

Not only that: they strive to give the musician as much flexibility as possible. Often times, I find that the lack of "warmth", "emotion", or whatever we call it comes from the person programming the MIDI rather than from the library itself. Not saying this is the case here, nor that I can make the library sing (far from it.)

That's another great point with VSL: instead of researching forever, you can simply download a fully functional demo and play with it to see if it suits your taste and workflow. They even accept refunds! I should have mentioned that in my video, I forgot.
Nailed it. I'm starting to want to get on here less and less. It can be tiresome and frustrating. Besides, look at less videos and forums and write more music, right!? :shocked:
:grin:
 
Ah ha! There's only one developer more expensive than VSL...it must be Berlin Woodwinds! :dancer:

Check out the price of Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds. That's the first one that comes to mind ;)

One feature I really like in VSL Synchron Woodwinds, but especially in Synchron Brass is Timbre Adjust.

I use it a lot on brass for I did not on the woodwinds. I need to dive deeper into this library. By the time they release the new instruments, I'll have written more with it and will be able to provide a more in-depth review.

and the realization that some folks that make big claims are pretty poor users and programmers of sample libraries

This also. But that's a different thing. What baffles me the most are the ones who don't share anything. Just... words.

I will note that Synchron Brass had one of the better and most favorably received mockups in that thread

I love SyB. It's definitely my go-to as it can do mostly anything. Sometimes, I use something else for these over-the-top-braaaaam-lines-that-don't-sound-like-brass-anyway.

We know who's doing the real work
:whistling:

Music piece was great.

Thank you!
 
Thank you for sharing the demo and your thoughts. I think it makes sense to have more control. Even though I'm new in this domain, the flexibility of VSL allows me to grow over time. Another library I just bought is the EWHO Opus. I hope between the two will keep me happy for a long time.
 
Hey all. I've had VSL Synchron Woodwinds for a while but never got around to dive into it. It is now done and here are my findings in under 10 minutes. Oh, and this marks the triumphant return of Bob in the narrator seat!





00:00 Intro
00:47 What to expect in this video
01:12 The Synchron Player
01:32 Let's hear a note and compare it
02:24 Let's hear some more notes
03:19 Flexibility. That's where it is.
04:19 Testing it in a real-world scenario
05:01 Straightforward mixing
05:25 Demo track: Lux Fugit
07:33 Conclusion

Samsung copypasting apple?! I think you got it flipped xD!
Aside from that outrageously false statement, it's a really nice and compact video. Beautiful demo as well!
 
Hey all. I've had VSL Synchron Woodwinds for a while but never got around to dive into it. It is now done and here are my findings in under 10 minutes. Oh, and this marks the triumphant return of Bob in the narrator seat!





00:00 Intro
00:47 What to expect in this video
01:12 The Synchron Player
01:32 Let's hear a note and compare it
02:24 Let's hear some more notes
03:19 Flexibility. That's where it is.
04:19 Testing it in a real-world scenario
05:01 Straightforward mixing
05:25 Demo track: Lux Fugit
07:33 Conclusion

I love your work, and your REAL voice, so the irony is that in your wonderful video a flat robot voice tells us that starting with flat sound and then shaping later is better than overmodulated sound that cannot be unmodulated.... well sort of.

Please use your REAL voice.

:)
 
Thank you, Akarin!

The velocity crossfades in the Synchron bassoon (and others) are a bit hard to handle, the transitions are quite abrupt and the louder layers are not that well suited for lyrical phrases.
Here’s a version using only the lowest layer (mod wheel at zero), first note is the espressivo patch.
It’s another flavour, but I think it sounds ok.
View attachment Synchron.mp3

The other lib I’m guessing Berlin bassoon 1, it sounds a lot like my following example.
View attachment Berlin.mp3
 
Last edited:
I started to notice a correlation between how vocal some people are compared to what they share (which is often nothing.) It's really hard to navigate through this and form an opinion. It's the age old question of establishing trust. Again, this is not an attack of any kind, just a realization that I have.

I understand that people that are vocal, not knowing their backgrounds is hard in terms of weight their comment has on certain topics. Sure, i have that too at times. However......... (see below)

It's much easier to form an opinion when all these words are backed by examples. Sometimes, an example is provided to illustrate a negative point and you can clearly hear that the person doesn't have any clue on how to program MIDI as it was recently the case in the Appassionata thread. At least, you get a sense of how people use it, if the problem lies with the library or simply how it is handled. Some people, I try to emulate their sound as well because they are so very skilled.

I'm not particularly skilled in MIDI programming, that's why I provide examples so that people can figure out if they can relate to what I say or if what I'm showing sounds crap and newbish to them.

To me this is a bit oddly written, you make it appear that if someone is not posting examples, they have no worth in the conversation, which i disagree with. Secondly, you make it so, that a not so good midi programming example, means the poster is dismissed from forming an opinion of worhtyness. I disagree on that aswel.
Reason: How a library or patch is received is very personal, subjective. Not everyone feels the need to proof this to any person. It's an expression of feeling. Posting an example doesn't show anything really. As you said there can be very bad examples, yet still valid because of OPINION of THAT person. Opinions are in nature subjective, no matter how you turn it. You can agree with an opinion, but it remains subjective. Same for the Examples posted, person x might like it, person z might not. Again it's therefor subjective. Why can't words alone not be enough? Why must their in your view be "proof" for something to have some worhtyness in a discussion? I know in relation to the first paragraph, that it's hard to read through it and to understand someones opinion is from first hand experience (owning it) or from more distant/indirect experience (meaning: listening to demos or watching/reading reviews, not owning it). But i still value everybody the same, because i don't know their backgrounds that well. And a good example, says not much about knowlegde overall (e.g. if he/she posts in another thread, nobody knows if he/she owns it, or not, or has enough experiences with it). Also some "bad" examples, says nothing about the quality of the person posting it.. it might aswel be that he/she sees no point in crafting a precise demo piece.. might be a very sloppy example, just to illustrate something. All in all.. we don't know much about the poster, other than what we read here (which, advocate of the devil here, might not always be true ;) )

If I can be so bold as to use your example: 10 paragraphs of explanation on why VSL sound sterile, owning 5 (expensive) brass libraries and yet not a single finished track to share. What am I to make of this? What is anyone to make of this?

Correct, i am very hesitant to post music here.. thought about it, but then it feel uncomfortable to do so.
Not sure, why.. Might be that it can be seen as proof of my abilities (or lack of it).
Might be held against me even (like referencing it, reading my comments in threads):like you just mentioned: you noticed it, and well....you kind of hold it against me: cause you are not trusting my opinion (because of no examples). :) Or so it feels :)
Again i understand the thoughts you have, and i in some degree am in agreement, in that it's hard to make an opinion from comments.

Is there really a problem with VSL in the first place? You seem to think so as you say that "maybe they will fix the lib." I find it unfair both the people reading and the developer working tirelessly to make a product the best they can (I know several of the people at VSL, they are fantastic human beings.)

Not only that: they strive to give the musician as much flexibility as possible. Often times, I find that the lack of "warmth", "emotion", or whatever we call it comes from the person programming the MIDI rather than from the library itself. Not saying this is the case here, nor that I can make the library sing (far from it.)

Look i hear it in every review on the product by END USERS: the same sonic issue (especially with horn1). It bugs me, considering it's supposed to be the new improved thing on the market. Yet listening to the older libraries (end user reviews) i do not hear that issue. How can that be? You might disagree, but my ears tell me: something is wrong here. it sounds plain wrong. And that is MY opinion on it. So for a sales pitch thing, the product reviews did the opposite thing: i didn't buy it.

And i don't see how this is unfair. Every developer is working tirelessly on it's products, vsl is not the exception here. But that doesn't guarentee a good product for everyone ;) And i am just as much entitled to form an opinion on the outcome (for me, it's through audio examples: even official ones, which vsl finds the best in class ones), as you can have one. If it's not good for someone, he/she is entitled to express that. Others may agree or disagree.. an opinion is an opinion = subjective.

That's another great point with VSL: instead of researching forever, you can simply download a fully functional demo and play with it to see if it suits your taste and workflow. They even accept refunds! I should have mentioned that in my video, I forgot.

Yes, that is an option to use to find out. But for me first looks, and then reviews (indepth), and demos tell me something about a library upfront. Demos are carefully selected by the developer, to let the product shine in it's best way. If there are issues discovered in it (by the listener), the interrest in it deminishes quickly. Then if reviews show the same issues, even more clearly... well.......the chances of investigating it for yourself via a trial is bare to none by that time.

again, no hard feelings, or attacking you, just venting an opinion on your thoughts. :)
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom