Question regarding Altiverb 7 and track volume increase.

Dylanguitar

New Member
I've noticed that even with the mix set to 100% when I have it set up on an Aux (FX track in Cubase), whenever I raise the "send gain," on an instrument track, it also seems to increase the volume of the dry signal, in effect making the track louder. I don't have this same problem with my other reverbs. With most of my other reverbs, when I increase the send gain, it just adds verb to the track, but doesn't really add an increase in volume. Does anyone know why this is happening with Altiverb or a way around it? I would prefer not to remix track levels every time I want to add a little more reverb. Thanks!
 

labornvain

Active Member
So I just did a comprehensive test to see if I could replicate what you're experiencing. I could not.

Using a 1k test tone sent to Altierb 7 in Cubase 10.5, I was unable to affect the level of the dry signal in any way by changing the level of send.

I routed the test tone channel to 1 group/bus and the reverb channel to another group/bus so that I could carefully monitor their levels as I played around with the send. Everything nulled perfectly

Since I had run the the test tone track to its own bus/group and the Reverb track to a separate bus, I was able too easily solo the reverb bus to hear only the affected signal just in case some dry signal might be bleeding into the wet signal somehow.

Of course this did not occur. With Altiverb's mix level set to 100%, the signal was 100% wet.

My conclusion is that you're either imagining things, or something else is defective within your setup.
 

ProfoundSilence

Senior Member
I have a hard time imagining a situation where the plugin itself is even able to cause that issue... sounds like 100% something going on with your DAW, or you're doing something weird.

Recording a screen cast via OBS would get you answers quickly, I'm sure.
 

sinkd

Senior Member
Depending on the impulse response, the early reflection component could be what you are hearing. Have you tried mixing the relative levels of ER and tail in Altiverb? A long predelay will also keep the "dry" part of the mix more present and close, which could make it seem louder.
 

robh

Senior Member
I've noticed that even with the mix set to 100% when I have it set up on an Aux (FX track in Cubase), whenever I raise the "send gain," on an instrument track, it also seems to increase the volume of the dry signal, in effect making the track louder. I don't have this same problem with my other reverbs. With most of my other reverbs, when I increase the send gain, it just adds verb to the track, but doesn't really add an increase in volume. Does anyone know why this is happening with Altiverb or a way around it? I would prefer not to remix track levels every time I want to add a little more reverb. Thanks!
Check to see if your "Direct" button is on. It should be off.
Screen Shot 2020-09-12 at 11.37.10 AM.png
 

twincities

New Member
if what you're saying is that when sending, the *perceived* volume of the original signal increases, that is totally normal, and all comes down to the coherence between the 2 signals.

damn near everything is a variable here, reverb tail length, predelay time, volume of the verb, whether the source sound is short or long in comparison to the reverb predelay.

the difference in correlation between wet and dry, comparing a "large warm hall" to something like a "small tight room" can be drastic. one of them sounds like an effect; smeared, lush, smooth. ultimately easily distinguishable from the original sound listening in solo. the other, depending some settings can sound very similar to the original sound. very similar to the point that when adding them together your brain just hears more of the initial sound, because they are mathematically, very similar.

the other side of that is that with a long, drastic reverb tail, we get away with bringing that send volume up less. i don't need anywhere near -0dbfs to hear the 4 second decay of a dense reverb. i realistically might need something that loud to perceive "reverb" from a .6sec tail of a thinner reverb with no predelay in a dense mix.

now combine the fact that the short reverb is (for argument sake) the same volume level as the dry sound because it needs that extra volume to cut through as a "reverb" to you, and heavily correlated to each other, you've just given yourself a 4-5dB summation bonus in the end.

but none of this is bad, or behavior that needs to be changed. the same thing is happening to everyone else, with every other reverb. just to different degrees. it's important to take a step back and remember what we're doing when "sending" vs inserting on the channel. you aren't "giving away" a chunk of your signal to go to the aux *instead* of the initial path. you are duplicating the signal. literally making copies of the same instrument to arrive in your master buss no longer once, but now three, four, ten(?!) times. we should expect volume differences from that behavior, not be surprised by it.
 
OP
Dylanguitar

Dylanguitar

New Member
Depending on the impulse response, the early reflection component could be what you are hearing. Have you tried mixing the relative levels of ER and tail in Altiverb? A long predelay will also keep the "dry" part of the mix more present and close, which could make it seem louder.
After having messed around with the plugin some more, this is exactly seemed to be the cause of the pronounced (to me) volume jump. If I pull back on the early reflections it seems to tame this.
 
OP
Dylanguitar

Dylanguitar

New Member
if what you're saying is that when sending, the *perceived* volume of the original signal increases, that is totally normal, and all comes down to the coherence between the 2 signals.

damn near everything is a variable here, reverb tail length, predelay time, volume of the verb, whether the source sound is short or long in comparison to the reverb predelay.

the difference in correlation between wet and dry, comparing a "large warm hall" to something like a "small tight room" can be drastic. one of them sounds like an effect; smeared, lush, smooth. ultimately easily distinguishable from the original sound listening in solo. the other, depending some settings can sound very similar to the original sound. very similar to the point that when adding them together your brain just hears more of the initial sound, because they are mathematically, very similar.

the other side of that is that with a long, drastic reverb tail, we get away with bringing that send volume up less. i don't need anywhere near -0dbfs to hear the 4 second decay of a dense reverb. i realistically might need something that loud to perceive "reverb" from a .6sec tail of a thinner reverb with no predelay in a dense mix.

now combine the fact that the short reverb is (for argument sake) the same volume level as the dry sound because it needs that extra volume to cut through as a "reverb" to you, and heavily correlated to each other, you've just given yourself a 4-5dB summation bonus in the end.

but none of this is bad, or behavior that needs to be changed. the same thing is happening to everyone else, with every other reverb. just to different degrees. it's important to take a step back and remember what we're doing when "sending" vs inserting on the channel. you aren't "giving away" a chunk of your signal to go to the aux *instead* of the initial path. you are duplicating the signal. literally making copies of the same instrument to arrive in your master buss no longer once, but now three, four, ten(?!) times. we should expect volume differences from that behavior, not be surprised by it.
Thanks for the detailed reply. I was just used to other reverbs for which this does not happen nearly as much, my LX480 being an example. I'm not sure what the variables are for such a large discrepancy in volumes between the 2 verbs (I know you listed some), but I definitely hear it. I did pull down the early reflections on my altibverb and it did seem to mitigate the volume jump quite a bit.
 
OP
Dylanguitar

Dylanguitar

New Member
This is what I heard back from the AudioEase (they responded very quickly).
"f you send more signal into Altiverb then the output will be equally louder, as the process of Altiverb (convolution) is linear. More input, more output.
It would depend on what IR sample you use how much direct signal you hear increase. If this is a gear sample with lots of direct sound, you will notice the increase quicker. But if this is a room IR and you have the direct sound set OFF (which is default in Altiverb) then Altiverb should behave as expected."