Question about Very High Violin Ensemble Part

[Sears Poncho]

Bar 47: Additionally to what Sears Poncho wrote, a possible notation would be like in the example. And this is how I would play it anyways, no matter whether notated or not.

Yes. And if the section was big enough, we'd cheat and take two bows on the long note.

Do you want the third note to be shorter but still slurred,

This was my interpretation. An eighth note instead of a quarter would work.

 

[Zedcars]

Looks very good. A few unsolicited comments:

1. I wouldn't do "simile" with slurs. Measure 29 etc, write the slurs in.

2. The double down bow measures don't make much sense, especially at FF.

3. Measure 47: that last note will jump out. 7/8ths of the measure is one bow, then 1/8th is one bow. Consider slurring that note in.

4. Consider not putting any bowings in. It's not your job, for starters. Some of them don't line up. 51 you have up bow. If one does what you have written, they will be at "up bow" at 54, where you have down bow. Doesn't work out. Again, not your job. In FF passages like this, the melody is gonna need a ton of bow.

5. 3 before C you have "cresc". YOu might wanna have a dotted line or something. It's a 3 measure molto cresc. Maybe drive the point home with a hairpin one before C?

6. Feel free to disregard all this....except #1. Ya gotta put the bowings in. Lazy.

1. OK, will do.

2. My ignorance and inexperience is showing in spades it would seem. I thought I was able to add down bows against what might ordinarily be an opposite bow direction in order to create more or less emphasis depending on the musical intent. My intent in that bar was one of slight emphasis, but not of a medium or heavy accent. I think it's best I remove them.

3. The note at bar 47 is meant to be played with a small gap/rest between that and the following note - a bit longer than a staccato would be ideal. I could notate it as a slurred staccato.

4. I won't be able to communicate my intentions without bow markings. Would it be false to say that poorly written bow markings are better than no markings at all because it at least communicates an approximation of what the composer intends? I think I would probably talk a violinist about my notation before ever expecting any group to play it. I did anticipate my bow markings to be incorrect to be honest. I do appreciate your input here though.

5. OK, I will do this.

6. I certainly won't do this!

 

[Zedcars]

^^^ What Sears Poncho says. Especially #4. It is an unwritten rule between composers and string players that composers write down what they want to hear musically and leave the decision of up- and downbow markings (and secret division or combination of slurs) to the most experienced bowing expert in the field, most times the head of the first violins (concert master). There might also be local preferences in bowing style. Composers who try it themselves nearly always get it wrong, because even for an experienced player it can be hard to estimate this without the instrument in the hand.

For example would you have guessed that I began the theme (C) with upbow? I wouldn't have from just reading the notes, yet that is what I ended up with after a few trys.

I had anticipated my blundering missteps into bow markings as a non-string player with rudimentary self-taught education on the matter. I do intend to hire a violinist to help go through these issues with a fine tooth comb.

Only very few additions:
Bar 28: Supposedly you mean to write "Vl" instead of "Va" for the first two lines?

I think the poor resolution of the screen capture may have made it look like Va. On my iPhone it does look like that a bit. But I assure you it actually says "Vn" as the abbreviated form for Violins.

Bar 28: I am slightly confused what you mean with the bowing by a slur over three notes with the last note having a staccato/spiccato dot on top of it. Maybe this is a traditional vs modern or european vs american thing or simply some missing education on my side. But I would need to ask: Do you want the third note to be shorter but still slurred, or do you want it to be played with an extra accent (little crack) at its start? In the first case I would regard the dot as superfluous; the last note of such slurs is somewhat shorter anyways if no extra effort is done to prevent this.

Again, my inexperience here is starting to bite me on the bum! My intention is to have the first two note of the triplet played for their full value, but the last note is to be about half value of just over - hence the slurred staccato. Perhaps it would be better to have the first two notes slurred (or not at all) and then have a non-slurred staccato on the last note of the triplet.

Bar 31: Violins 1 have dynamics on their rests? Same for 33 - 36.

The dynamics here are intended for the upper V2 divisi part. I had thought it necessary to provide independent dynamics for each part, but perhaps this only applies if each divisi group has different dynamics? Sorry - this is all rudimentary stuff I know.

Bar 37: Violins 2 (if they are not Violas) can not play that low F.

That's my carelessness. In my haste to swap the V2 and Violas round at John's logical suggestion (he had only seen the smaller excerpt at the time), I forgot to check the ranges were ok. I will sort this out. I remember now why I gave the trems to the V2 and the other part to the violas!

Bar 47: Additionally to what Sears Poncho wrote, a possible notation would be like in the example. And this is how I would play it anyways, no matter whether notated or not.

Thank you for providing the example. However, there needs to be a small gap/rest between 8th note C and the following note. A slurred staccato might be closer to what I need here.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Zedcars]

Darran/Zedcars,
a last observation which can be difficult to alter here, since you are already quite advanced in this project, but might be of good help for your general writing:

In your example there are many 4ths in the upper voices of the strings, and sometimes even in the violas. Please be aware that fourths in neighboring voices (or even in one voice as divisi) always need special intonation consideration and are prone to sound out of tune if not being executed very well (which needs rehearsal).

Now, these fourths might be a very conscious choice if you are going for the "fanfare" sound. But if they repeat very often, then it could also be that this came from a typical pattern of transferring piano chords to a strings arrangement. It is quite tempting to put two hands on the piano for a chord, play typical piano patterns, and then to allot the left hand to CB + VC, and the right hand to Vl + Va. But these dreaded fourths are one typical symptom of this, often representing the pinky and the forefinger of the right piano hand, or the thumb and the middle finger in other inversions.

Another symptom of this is that as a result we will often find the viola playing quite high passages. All this will make the upper frequencies quite populated, with a hole in the middle, and only then comes the bass. This can be good if you for example want to make room in the middle for other voices (e.g. winds) but only if this is a conscius decision.

You will hardly find many of such fourths in the works of classical composers, and they knew why. The easiest way to make such passages less critical, is to transfer one of the both notes one octave lower. This is referred to 'wide voicing', opposed to 'narrow' voicing. (EDIT I see that in anglo-american this is also referred to 'open voicing' and 'closed voicing'.

You find two examples in the attachment. In the first bar we have a fourth between 1st and 2nd violins, which is intonation critical to begin with, also a special sound at itself. Below that we have a third between the 2nd violins and the violas ... such narrow intervals are very nice between two upper voices but tend to produce a 'wall of sound' between middle voices. Why? Because narrow intervals always produce many harmonics, and the lower in the mix this happens, the more it populates the sound ... and not always in a pleasant way. Again, if that is your purpose then go for it, but consciously.

In bar 2 everything is relaxed. We have a sixth between the two violins - sounds very nice and is easy to hit, and a fifth between violin 2 and violas. The violas fulfil their natural role here by bridging to the bass.

In bar 3 we have another example of narrow voicing. The third between the violins is nice, they will produce that lovely 'duet' sound. However the fourth between v2 and va is somewhat nasty, and we have an even wider gap to the bass than before.

In bar 4 the situation is relaxed again, a sixth between the violins and a fifth between v2 and va.

Now you say 'but I liked that lovely duet sound between the violins!'. Fine, then go vor the solution in bar 5, creating some distance between the violas and the violin pair. However the violas are still far enough away from the cellos (a fifth) not to produce too much acoustical mud (less than e.g. a third in that range could easily do, if being in the middle of a mix).

If you overdo that and put the viola even further down as in bar six, then a narrow interval (third in this case) to the cello occurs which can will make things muddy. Of course, if only the violas and the bass instruments would play, without the violins, this would not be much of an issue, and could actually sound very nice. However with the violins above it, the harmonics of that low third can clash with the violins and create a 'wall of sound'.

BTW if you look at the viola voice you can 'see' that for the wide voicing it inhabits its natural
living space without being forced into a different role.

Probably you already know all that and I am preaching to the choir, in that case please forgive me. The situation was just too good to explain a fundamental phenomenon that I often see in arrangements.

Now some readers here could comment: "Yes, but I am not classically trained!"
To which I respond: "Maybe, but I explained this here in a way that everybody can understand it, no matter which formal training (as long as one can decipher the music example). Actually the so called 'classical composer training' has very much to do with the observation of such very simple circumstances. So, whoever reads this, no matter your education, why not pick up this snippet of information and make use of it!"

Hope that helps, Hannes

You are right in your educated assumption that it is a transcription from a piano work. I am glad you have educated me on the problems with 4ths. I must admit to feeling quite demoralised after hearing this about the 4ths, since they are integral to this sections of music and others. I'm not quite sure how I am going to proceed now. But, I appreciate you being so generous with your time and sharing your knowledge. It's better that I'm alerted to these howlers now rather than when faced with the embarrassment of a disastrous rehearsal/performance.

Funnily enough, I also had high flutes in 4ths and, prior to your post, I had already read that they will have similar intonation issues, so was going to omit their notes in that section. It doesn't leave me with any high instruments to play the 4ths. Perhaps an octave lower would be a possible solution?

I will certainly think hard about this.

 

[Hannes_F]

Darren,
in this case I would want to advise you to say "it's a feature, not a bug" and boldly leave it as it is. And, if rehearsed well, such high fourths can sound good (as hopefully my example demonstrated). IF they are in tune, they sort of melt into each other (what I called the fanfare sound).
Just keep in mind to reserve some rehearsal time for that, and hire an experienced conductor.

For other (future) works ... if you are composing from piano then one very simple approach would be: How would I play on the piano if I were only allowed to use two fingers per hand?

 

[mikeh-375]

How would I play on the piano if I were only allowed to use two fingers per hand?

Interesting tip @Hannes_F . Another tip Darren, if you play guitar, pick up a cheap violin (viola and cello too -I got all three for £100 years back) and from there you can easily figure out multiple stops and their playability, at least in isolation using your ears (no barr chords though). Putting stops into practice needs more thought and study, with particular attention to surrounding context in the part, but the resource is great to have when applied with knowledge and practical consideration.

 

[MichaelBarry]

It's very player dependent - if you have a word class orchestra they will get it.

Richard Struass is very good to study when you have questions about high violin writing. Listen to how a world class orchestra handles it and look how a regional orchestra handles it.

I'm usually very cautious about writing that high for modern LA string sections at sessions (cough cough). It never really sings in tune.