Ponchielli - Update: Complete Suite (Attempt for extreme realism with sampled orchestra)

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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Beeing so I notice that the original is narrower than your mockup. But that is easy manageable, I think.
I am sorry to say but my ears and my analysing tools tell me that the original is wider. I am very aware of that the original has a slight wider stereo image. I am not sure why you say its the other way around. *scratching my head*

Having said that: I deliberately chose to use a bit of a narrower stereo field because it sounds to me a bit to wide in the reference and referring to another recording like the telarc of the tschaikowsky overture seems to fit more in the ballpark of sounding more natural in that aspect with a more balanced ratio of mids vs side information. I am not sure if that makes sense to you. Other than that let me know if you have more questions.
 
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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
this piece is awesome! also really great advises. i not sure how this is possible but if you do have a master class i would be interested for sure. i am new to realistic stuff and seeing this is possible with general library is nuts! do you use eqs and filters and stack of sound libraries? i am assuming theres a lot of instrument combination to make them sound this way.
Yes, layering is one thing and eq can help treating problem zones or simply emerging different sounds together as well.
 

JEPA

Senior Member
I am sorry to say but my ears and my analysing tools tell me that the original is wider. I am very aware of that the original has a slight wider stereo image. I am not sure why you say its the other way around. *scratching my head*

Having said that: I deliberately chose to use a bit of a narrower stereo field because it sounds to me a bit to wide in the reference and referring to another recording like the telarc of the tschaikowsky overture seems to fit more in the ballpark of sounding more natural in that aspect with a more balanced ratio of mids vs side information. I am not sure if that makes sense to you. Other than that let me know if you have more questions.
I could be totally wrong! but that is what I hear home with non pro headphones. But I am sure I have heard the violins and violas (the higher section of the strings) covering mid left to center and not sooo wide to the left... maybe I am getting deaf :confused:
 
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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
I could be totally wrong! but that is what I hear home with non pro headphones. But I am sure I have heard the violins and violas (the higher section of the strings) covering mid left to center and not sooo wide to the left... maybe I am getting deaf :confused:
Hm, strange and maybe I am having deaf ears too after that couple of weeks :grin: Which one is the reference for you?
 

JEPA

Senior Member
Hm, strange and maybe I am having deaf ears too after that couple of weeks :grin: Which one is the reference for you?
oh I gotta download them again, now I'm in studio but I think the one's named ending in B2 was the reference for me, the other ending in .mp3 was your mockup.
 
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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
oh I gotta download them again, now I'm in studio but I think the one's named ending in B2 was the reference for me, the other ending in .mp3 was your mockup.
Well they both are mp3s here and both ending with that extension *.mp3. But the B2 actually is the mockup and that is probably where the confusion is.
 

MartinH.

Senior Member
I could be totally wrong! but that is what I hear home with non pro headphones. But I am sure I have heard the violins and violas (the higher section of the strings) covering mid left to center and not sooo wide to the left... maybe I am getting deaf :confused:
I think you're just legit confusing the two because the mockup is really THAT good! There's no shame in admitting you thought the mockup is the real one, it's the ultimate compliment you could give.

To me personally the mockup sounds both more pleasant and more "real" in the sense that it sounds more to me like I'd imagine a live performance to sound when I'm actually there to hear it. The original sounds much more like a "recording" to me.

If I hadn't heard snippets of it before and you had mixed this mockup in with a couple of real recordings and asked me to pick out which one I think is the mockup, I'd probably just have picked the recording that I like the least.

When I listened to the long version of the mockup for the first time I intentionally didn't look at the filenames first and thought "well surely this must be the reference track", then when I heard the actual reference track I remembered the differences in the stereo image and knew "well damn, that first one was the mockup after all... and it sounds better to me".


Really outstanding and impressive work Alex!
 

JEPA

Senior Member
I think you're just legit confusing the two because the mockup is really THAT good! There's no shame in admitting you thought the mockup is the real one, it's the ultimate compliment you could give.
I'm not ashamed! :) I'm pleased surprised and will asure with all my forces to hear in HIGH DEFINITION and then I will tell you if I am getting old... ;) :rofl:
 

JEPA

Senior Member
Ok here is a very honest and brutal 1 on 1 against the live version. I can say the following: Unless you want to lose your mind, I simply would not advice anybody in the world to mock that up with samples. It´s hilarous challenging imo and almost every bar in that piece reminds me that there is no such thing as a common articulation system, where a normal "default configured" sample library patch can capture anywhere near descent any of that performance. In order to capture a glimpse of that you have to step back and make a total different roadmap and plan which has nothing to do with any common keyswitching or articulation based system at all.


also. Again, because of the cello, and the long phrases of the strings my opinion, my guess is that the first (1) audio the original reference is, and the second the mockup (some harsh accents difficult to evade from static samples). I don't know which of both is the B2 at the end of the name, but in case I am wrong, wonderful job Alexander, take my money and make me happy! ;) It's really amaaaazing :)
 
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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Holy Jesus..here is the complete rendering of the whole suite. I need a few days to reflect everything and then polish some of the sections here and there and try out little additional things in order to make it perfect. I need an oxygen tent though..:shocked::faint:

 
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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Great work!

You really deserved a big cake!
Hope the night wasn´t that long :D, oldschool good times commercial plus the theme. And I still buy their cakes from time to time, they are really awesome imo for an "out of the box" cake. :2thumbs:
 
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Gingerbread

New Member
Very, very impressive. I would jump on any masterclass you made. There's lots of videos covering basics, but very few that cover advanced techniques. An in-depth masterclass would be worth just as much as a high-quality sample library to me.

Sorry for the novice question, but I'm curious about detuning. Could you explain that a little further? Does it mean (for example) layering two different violin patches on top of each other, and slightly using pitchbend automation on one of them in certain places?
 

Consona

Senior Member


Apart from some few moments here and there, this sounds sooo clooose to a live performance, man!!! Really impressive!

You should absolutely make some tutorials.

Could you provide a list of libraries you used?
 
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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Very, very impressive. I would jump on any masterclass you made. There's lots of videos covering basics, but very few that cover advanced techniques. An in-depth masterclass would be worth just as much as a high-quality sample library to me.

Sorry for the novice question, but I'm curious about detuning. Could you explain that a little further? Does it mean (for example) layering two different violin patches on top of each other, and slightly using pitchbend automation on one of them in certain places?
No automation, no pitchbend. no. I detune all the instruments in all of their ranges manually and have additional CCs to ride a individual tuning performance in realtime depending on what kind of performance I have to replicate.



Apart from some few moments here and there, this sounds sooo clooose to a live performance, man!!! Really impressive!

You should absolutely make some tutorials.

Could you provide a list of libraries you used?
Here is the list:
Berlin Strings
Symphonic Sphere
Spitfire Chamber Strings
Spitfire Symphonic Strings
8dio Agitato
Fluid Shorts

Berlin Woodwinds (Legacy + Revive)
Cinesamples Hollywood Winds

Cinesamples Percussion
Cinesamples Harp
Spitfire Skaila Kanga Harp
Spitfire Joby Burgess Percussion

Cinematic Studio Brass
Spitfire Symphonic Brass
Berlin Brass
Sample Modeling Brass

Metropolis Ark 1,3,4
 

Consona

Senior Member
Here is the list:
Berlin Strings
Symphonic Sphere
Spitfire Chamber Strings
Spitfire Symphonic Strings
8dio Agitato
Fluid Shorts

Berlin Woodwinds (Legacy + Revive)
Cinesamples Hollywood Winds

Cinesamples Percussion
Cinesamples Harp
Spitfire Skaila Kanga Harp
Spitfire Joby Burgess Percussion

Cinematic Studio Brass
Spitfire Symphonic Brass
Berlin Brass
Sample Modeling Brass

Metropolis Ark 1,3,4
What? You mix all those libraries to make a cohesive sounding orchestra? Wow. That's mental. :grin: And thank you. :)

A walkthrough would be really interesting. Seeing how are all those individual parts put together. It's amazing.
 
OP
AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
What? You mix all those libraries to make a cohesive sounding orchestra? Wow. That's mental. :grin: And thank you. :)

A walkthrough would be really interesting. Seeing how are all those individual parts put together. It's amazing.
Yes, you can do that, I simply say this: you can mix almost everything together, almost everything. It takes some thoughts, and work. I am thinking about that class to do. I have yet to smash my head about the structure of that class of course and some technical things. Thanks also for the heads up and words in the spitfire thread. I appreciate that a lot.
 

Consona

Senior Member
@AlexanderSchiborr Sorry for bothering you about the class in like every post, but man, your mock ups are so superb. :)

(Just an hour ago, I was listening to Wrath of Khan soundtrack, thinking about something else, and suddently saying to myself, wow, this strings line could have been programmed way tighter :dodgy:, Alexander's mock-ups sound better, then realizing it's a fricking live recording... I kid you not. :roflmao: And maybe that shows I suck at listening to things... Hehe.)

You are basically saying that I don't have to regret any buy since there's a huge chance all those things can work together to make a cohesive orchestra and can be useful and complement each other; and you are showing it's possible to program stuff that captures the emotion, intent and just do what we want from it, to sound like a real performance one can show to the world without feeling awkward that there's some big compromise about the whole thing.

Like that pompous part from 5:14 onward, my god, that sounds so lively, vivid and energetic, no way it's samples! :laugh: I know I'm not comparing it to the real thing, which always shows some deficiencies, but... considering what we hear is chopped up pieces of some separately recorded semi-performances-at-best put together to emulate a room full of highly trained and skilled musicians. Holy Effin Wow.


I was asking about the libraries since I'm still searching for one more brass lib to make that section better, otherwise I have everything covered. I only have CineBrass Core+Pro and sometimes I feel I need something little playable. I'm still waiting for Junkie Brass, since Tom said he wants to make it super playable, so that gives me time to decide what's the best choice. I don't want to spend any more money beside that one lib. I think now all I need to do is perfect my skills with CS2, Adagio, CineWinds, Auddict Winds, CinePerc and some various smaller Fluffy, Embertone and Spitfire stuff. Which should be way more than enough for my needs.

Can't wait for any new stuff from you! Cheers!
 
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