Ponchielli - Update: Complete Suite (Attempt for extreme realism with sampled orchestra)

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
On the Hunt for achieving extreme realism with my sampled orchestra I tried a few new techniques out.



Thanks for checking it out.

And thanks for A. Ponchielli for the great catchy and grandiose music he has written. (worth a study just for the orchestrational devices imo.)
 
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rottoy

Plebeian
Marvelously orchestrated as always, Alexander!
My only real complaint is that the room tone is a bit too prominent at times, dial it back a bit and things would be peachy throughout.
You could also take a look at pushing the gran cassa (?) hits back a bit into the room.
EDIT: Hmm, the room tone noise floor problem only seems to be present in the YouTube link.
It sounds fine on SoundCloud. Oh well.
 
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OP
AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Marvelously orchestrated as always, Alexander!
My only real complaint is that the room tone is a bit too prominent at times, dial it back a bit and things would be peachy throughout.
You could also take a look at pushing the gran cassa (?) hits back a bit into the room.
EDIT: Hmm, the room tone noise floor problem only seems to be present in the YouTube link.
It sounds fine on SoundCloud. Oh well.
Hej mate,
Thanks! Actually not entirely done with the whole 7 and 1 half minute suite. Will dial in 1db or 2 back the room and the Gran Cassa I will check out. (more ambience? or quiter? Actually that thing is really also in recordings that loud..I think I need once in my life smash on that thing)
 

rottoy

Plebeian
and the Gran Cassa I will check out. (more ambience? or quiter? Actually that thing is really also in recordings that loud..I think I need once in my life smash on that thing)
I would make it more ambient, yes. Felt a bit too punchy and upfront in comparison to the rest of the orchestra.
 

thov72

Senior Membr
mhhm verrah nice. not to say.... splendid.
A few sentences on what you do with samples (different attack/../../.../../....) maybe even at certain moments in the music would be greatly appreciated o_O
e.g. at 0.36s I did x to the brass ..... << I know I´m askng a lot but hey, if you don´t ask, you get no answer. And we still have sumer break so maybe you have some time left.....:rolleyes:
 
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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
mhhm verrah nice. not to say.... splendid.
A few sentences on what you do with samples (different attack/../../.../../....) maybe even at certain moments in the music would be greatly appreciated o_O
e.g. at 0.36s I did x to the brass ..... << I know I´m askng a lot but hey, if you don´t ask, you get no answer. And we still have sumer break so maybe you have some time left.....:rolleyes:
Yes, different attack times and release times, sometimes I shorten them quite a lot. Also layering instruments, detuning. For that specific part it is simply a 2 trumpet repetition patch from CSB layered with the regular 3 SM trumpets (over a tec2 controller) to add a bit dynamic and unique performance aspect. Also part of the sound is to goose them with the Winds but that´s more an orchestration specific thing. The rest of the brass (like horns) are here from CSB also. But I didn´t use only CSB Horns. Depending on the part I sometimes combined from MA1 the A3 Horns Ensemble shorts for layering or to replace them.
 
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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
You're absolutely one of the mock up masters here in this forum ! Looking forward to hear the whole 7,5 minutes.
Mhm, thanks for the flowers, not sure about that though, but I am working hard to improve. Sure I will post the whole suite once I am done with all the programming and final mixing. Thanks for checking it out, Heini.
 
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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Ok here is a very honest and brutal 1 on 1 against the live version. I can say the following: Unless you want to lose your mind, I simply would not advice anybody in the world to mock that up with samples. It´s hilarous challenging imo and almost every bar in that piece reminds me that there is no such thing as a common articulation system, where a normal "default configured" sample library patch can capture anywhere near descent any of that performance. In order to capture a glimpse of that you have to step back and make a total different roadmap and plan which has nothing to do with any common keyswitching or articulation based system at all.


 
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Heinigoldstein

Active Member
Ok here is a very honest and brutal 1 on 1 against the live version. I can say the following: Unless you want to lose your mind, I simply would not advice anybody in the world to mock that up with samples. It´s hilarous challenging imo and almost every bar in that piece reminds me that there is no such thing as a common articulation system, where a normal "default configured" sample library patch can capture anywhere near descent any of that performance. In order to capture a glimpse of that you have to step back and make a total different roadmap and plan which has nothing to do with any common keyswitching or articulation based system at all.


Well, we all know, nothing beats the real thing and the more lively it gets, the harder it is. But it's pretty close for samples. How long do you work on a mock up like this ? I'm used to give up after a while most of the time, because it always takes ages.
 
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AlexanderSchiborr

AlexanderSchiborr

Senior Member
Well, we all know, nothing beats the real thing and the more lively it gets, the harder it is. But it's pretty close for samples. How long do you work on a mock up like this ? I'm used to give up after a while most of the time, because it always takes ages.
Three Weeks so far. I never give up. Never. I attached to my fridge a handwritten note which I see every morning. It sais: Intensity + Consistency = Results. Though this message was meant regarding my diet and HIT workouts I apply that to my life in general.
 

novaburst

Senior Member
pretty close for samples.
I think its more than close i simply cant tell the difference, i am not familiar with the piece but i dare not choose what one is the sample, the whole thing just left me in wonderland.

@AlexanderSchiborr not quite sure how your doing it but pure dedication, i think deep down even those that are very experienced are having trouble choosing the live from the sample.

It is a new level
 

beyd770

Active Member
Ok here is a very honest and brutal 1 on 1 against the live version. I can say the following: Unless you want to lose your mind, I simply would not advice anybody in the world to mock that up with samples. It´s hilarous challenging imo and almost every bar in that piece reminds me that there is no such thing as a common articulation system, where a normal "default configured" sample library patch can capture anywhere near descent any of that performance. In order to capture a glimpse of that you have to step back and make a total different roadmap and plan which has nothing to do with any common keyswitching or articulation based system at all.


Man, this is ridiculous! Best I've ever heard. Would you ever consider making a walkthrough?
Edit: typo
 

muk

Senior Member
Absolutely fantastic work Alexander, as everything I have heard from you. This is probably as good as it gets with orchestral samples currently. As impressive an achievement your mockup is for samples, compared to the recording it is still a long, long way off. It can't hold a candle to the recording.
 

servandus

Member
Wow, that's what I'd call a labour of love. Fantastic mockup! So many wonderful details in it. Of course, the standard orchestral repertoire is arguably the craziest thing to do with samples, and the fact that you're posting the live orchestral version for comparison says a lot about your work and attitude. In a sense, it's like playing chess with Kasparov: you know the game is lost beforehand, but you still play your best. I absolutely love that (and I think it's by far the quickest and more inteligent way to learn any craft).

I think there're many things which clearly show the limitations of samples and are simply impossible to solve, but, if you're not too tired to try, two things hit me that I think you can easily improve (if you agree with what I hear, of course):

1) you could try layering a pp legato unisono line along the meassured tremoli that leads to the climax at the end of the intro (marked "sortono le ore del giorno") to make it sound more fluid and lyrical. That way you'll be able to still hear the tremolo clearly, but less pronounced (samples are always too obvious; in this kind of passages, if you listen to a live orchestra, most of the times you can sense kind of a real legato part even if there's actually none). I'm sure this is doable with the tools you're using.

2) the dynamics at the cello part (in the "sortono le ore della notte" section) are too bumpy to be credible, because the long notes inflate too much in relation to the weaker piqué bowing that preceedes them. I'm sure that's a tricky passage to mock up, but I think that's also doable if you temper the CC curves in the long notes (or avoid prerecorded swells if you're using them, or draw a compensating CC curve if the legato patch you're using inflates the note by itself), and again layer a pp spiccato patch on top of the second note of the slurred pattern (the legato patches tend to have too slow an attack to work in those quick passages, otherwise it sounds legato, but not present enough). This might be difficult or even impossible to fix, but I think it's the weakest part of your mockup, so it might be worth trying, given the amount of time you've spent with this, and the level of detail you're working with.

Again, fantastic mockup. I enjoyed it thoroughly.
 
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pipedr

Active Member
Amazing work, Alexander. I would also love to see a walkthrough or tutorial going through what you’ve learned doing this.
 

OleJoergensen

Senior Member
It sounds so good it is satisfying to listing too!
Your mock ups always sounds good and are developing doing time.

The life orchestra is still superior. Especially the timbre of the instruments and the sound of the room-hall.

Thank you for sharing!