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Orchestration Recipes Discussion Thread

The beginning of the promo video are as if they were taken directly out of my brain. I couldn’t stop laughing with tears of joy. It’s 4am and I’m considering running over to wake up my wife and show her the promo video, considering I just spent the past 2 weeks talking about black friday sales literally in every single conversation. Don’t even get me started on how many orchestral sample libraries I “needed”.

Going to buy this first thing tomorrow!
 



Out now!
To help you get the most out of all those Black Friday libraries you just bought.
(And feel less guilty about having bought them).
Special launch pricing of $30, reverts to full price of $59 on Jan 1, 2021.
Get your recipes at orchestrationrecipes.com


I had written an overly long note praising this idea, but I deleted it because it said over and over in different ways: “This is simply brilliant.”

I’ve wanted and needed something like this for a while now. Thank you.
 
I actually think even if you are more experienced, these are great tools as kickstarters to new ideas as sometimes during a block hearing something played differently and seeing how its broken down can lead to something else.
 
Just brilliant and bought.
To echo other ideas:
  • Would be nice to have theme names per recipe
  • Would be nice to give 3-4 examples of works that have used the recipe
  • Would be nice to create whole groupings around a theme (eg, action, trailer, sentimental, sad, horror, tension, ...). I think it would be cool to buy, say, a whole set of 24 recipes around horror.
 
Eeeh, this is very simplified critical listening. Take any arrangement, identify which instruments are playing. Recipe? No, music is about voices that are saying something. Each instrument is expressing a different voice. The recipe is nothing, the intent is everything.

You are supposed to decide who is talking and give them a reason to, at least in your own head. You are supposed to say something unique, not reproduce what others have said. Music is an ongoing conversation, that eludes you. That one unique expression and conversation is what justifies a recording of it. To put in on record that this conversation exsisted at that point in time. Then it makes sense to revisit it. It wont make sense to revisit a reproduced, formulaic conversation without intent.

I think this recipe analogy quickly gets old and counter-productive. Students will start to use recipes as blueprints, and slam others for not complying with the “right” recipe. The recipes ends up like canons, a conservative and so very classical idea..

Your reservations are somewhat understandable. However, it seems that the same concerns have been adequately addressed throughout this thread. At this point, I believe that most potential buyers know what to expect from this, as well as what they shouldn't be expecting.

I see this as more akin to a foreign-language phrasebook. It'll give you enough to buy "una cervezita", y "un pinchito de tortilla", or to ask directions to the local 'Oficina de Correos'. But you ain't gonna be foolin' anybody into believing you're the next Cervantes ;)

Edited: for grammar mistakes. Oh, the irony :)
 
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Sure, this type of lazyness put into canon was inevitable sooner or later. I will prepare for the struggles in my classes, if they come as I anticipate.

Not sure what you mean.

Anyway, I wanted to add that one of the reasons I've avoided this product is that I don't think I have enough knowledge to really be able to capitalise on the recipes. In other words, these are no substitute for a broader music education.
 
Eeeh, this is very simplified critical listening. Take any arrangement, identify which instruments are playing. Recipe? No, music is about voices that are saying something. Each instrument is expressing a different voice. The recipe is nothing, the intent is everything.

You are supposed to decide who is talking and give them a reason to, at least in your own head. You are supposed to say something unique, not reproduce what others have said. Music is an ongoing conversation, that eludes you. That one unique expression and conversation is what justifies a recording of it. To put in on record that this conversation exsisted at that point in time. Then it makes sense to revisit it. It wont make sense to revisit a reproduced, formulaic conversation without intent.

I think this recipe analogy quickly gets old and counter-productive. Students will start to use recipes as blueprints, and slam others for not complying with the “right” recipe. The recipes ends up like canons, a conservative and so very classical idea..

I think you are forgetting that there are also many people who do this as a hobby and who simply do not have the time to learn the theory from the basics until they get to a level to really understand a piece of music, identify its most important parts and understand why they are playing what they are playing (or it would take them years and they would lose all passion for it in the meantime).

Also, those are not simply recipes - there are also more or less detailed explanations, why each instrument or group is playing in a specific way etc. So you can also see this whole thing as a set of examples with analysis/explanations. And at least I - as a hobbyist - am learning something, just from watching the videos and reading the text. And it also gives me the feeling, that once I am able to understand enough of those little examples, that I can go on and try to understand more complex stuff. Of course, maybe I won't be successful (because I lack too much other knowledge) but at least this way I don't have the feeling of being overwhelmed (which I usually am, when I try to study something more complicated on my own).
Sure, you might disagree with the way things are presented. But if it's one thing that I have learned as a teacher myself (having taught in middle school, high school and university), then it's the fact that there is no "right way" to teach something - everyone is different and everyone needs a different approach to understand things (or even a different teacher - the personal feeling you have towards your teacher plays an important role).

Lastly, I don't think it's even intended to just be blueprints. On the contrary, the accompanying text encourages you to further experiment etc. So you can also see this as starting points.


I agree, that if you want to do this on a professional level, then this is not a shortcut to getting there (and there probably are no shortcuts). Still, even in such a case I would see it as valuable (because it might give you a new point of view on certain things). Also, I understand if you don't like it personally - just don't buy it in that case. But I think that there are a lot of people who really find this helpful ...
 
There is no single correct way to learn things. Knowledge can be acquired through many different methods, approaches, and perspectives, and the resulting goals and outcomes can also vary.

No claim was ever made that Orchestration Recipes would turn someone into a music PhD or even make them a great composer. They simply offer a unique way of breaking down and understanding certain orchestration and composition techniques. How those techniques are ultimately put to use by students is entirely dependent on an indvidual's talent and creativity.

The fact of the matter is western music is largely made up of patterns and techniques that have been repeated in one form or another by composers and orchestrators for centuries, so it's not surprising that these elements can be expressed as "recipes".

And it's not limited to classical music. How many blues songs have been written that follow the same exact 12-bar pattern, with the same instrumentation, rhythms and voicings? And yet, within that blues "recipe", there are great blues songs and lots of not-so-great ones. The recipe isn't the determining factor, it merely provides a framework in which the composer can work.

Orchestration Recipes won't turn me into the next John Williams, but they do give me a roadmap that points me in the right direction that I can put to use immediately. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Eeeh, this is very simplified critical listening. Take any arrangement, identify which instruments are playing. Recipe? No, music is about voices that are saying something. Each instrument is expressing a different voice. The recipe is nothing, the intent is everything.

You are supposed to decide who is talking and give them a reason to, at least in your own head. You are supposed to say something unique, not reproduce what others have said. Music is an ongoing conversation, that eludes you. That one unique expression and conversation is what justifies a recording of it. To put in on record that this conversation exsisted at that point in time. Then it makes sense to revisit it. It wont make sense to revisit a reproduced, formulaic conversation without intent.

I think this recipe analogy quickly gets old and counter-productive. Students will start to use recipes as blueprints, and slam others for not complying with the “right” recipe. The recipes ends up like canons, a conservative and so very classical idea..

I'm sorry but I feel like you live in a bubble of musicians and people who have been doing this all their life. It might not be useful for you as someone with a ton of experience, but for people like me who are just starting with orchestration even the critical listening part is incredibly hard. Even though I've been listening to classical and orchestral music for years I still have trouble listening to the recipe with 4 voices and identify the exact instruments (especially brass and woodwinds).

Also to be completely honest I really really really don't want to do music in terms of artistic intent or trying to say something. It's like with paintings, a lot of people enjoy talking about artist's intent and expressing themselves in various ways in the way they paint it, but to me paintings are way more about the mechanical aspects and how it's drawn. As a person with a technical/math background I care a lot more about patterns and nuances and the actual tangible bits than artistic expression.

That's not to say that artistic expression isn't important, and to a lot of people it is. But for me it really is not the end goal. Whenever I hear people talk about "feeling the music" I instantly feel like that's just not me. I prefer to analyze it. That doesn't mean I don't feel emotion when listening to something, but I really couldn't care less if it's because of a unique of a snowflake instrument and careful arrangement, or if it's a synthy electric guitar hans zimmer-esque thing layered on top of something any classicial musician would condemn.

It's not even about originality. Any time there is some super artistic hipster thing that's extremely original and artistic I usually don't feel a thing and just roll my eyes. I'm sorry, I know these things are important to a lot of people. But just as composing "unique" music by following a recipe or a pattern or an analytical process sounds to you, you have to realize that there are people who feel exactly the opposite way.

When I hear a musician improvise something amazing and then ask them how they did it and they say "I don't know, I just felt it this way" it instantly loses a ton of value in my eyes, as compared to when they say "I felt like it should be like this, so I made conscious decisions to do it that way". I know this is sacrilegious to even think, let alone say publically, it is how I feel.

I'll close this with a real life experience of this type. I was having a group discussion in a "library" about generating music using AI when this old gentleman (a lifelong musician) sitting nearby spontaneously raised his voice and said something like: "Are you crazy? Machines producing music? Music should be about feelings, about expressing the author's torment, about communication and explaining their life's journey through the music. A machine couldn't possibly every do this" ... it was an interesting experience, but as someone who tried pursuing a PhD in machine learning and wanted to focus on generating music using AI, I just disagree. It might be that way for some people, but I'll be just as happy listening to a "Chopin piece" generated by an algorithm after it crunched through everything Chopin ever wrote as I would be to the original piece. Because I would believe that maybe the algorithm could potentially express what Chopin wanted even better than Chopin himself (oh god I'll get crucified for saying this, am I not?), because it could just look at everything he ever did, find the patterns, and compose the ultimate distillation of his "life's work".

The same way I feel that a small and simple recipe could distill a specific feeling in a way that is extremely useful and compact, regardless of how it is later used. It might be blasphemy to some, especially people who spent their life studying music, but for people who dedicate their life to other things, these alternative approaches are incredibly useful.

edit: Since I've already said enough to be crucified for I'll add one more thing. I also feel that teaching music theory in terms of musical history is wrong :) Almost every music theory I've read starts out with "we explain it this way because that's how it's been done". Only recently have I started looking at books that just analyze music theory in the raw form (e.g. with linguistics) and holyshit it's so refreshing. Even just the notation itself is ridiculous and full of arbitrary poo, while looking at something like 7th chords on a Tonnetz diagram is mindblowingly glorious. I just wish more people cared about a principled and logical approach, rather than reiterating the same old ways they've learned this. A good example is that here (Czech Republic and I think in Germany too) we write H instead of B and B instead of Bb ... and if you google the historical reasons for that it just makes me suicidal just thinking of all the people who didn't care to fix this at any point and just accepted this. I still say B and fight with everyone I speak to about this and revert to just saying chord names in english, because the notation in our native language just gets idiotic.
 
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Some educators believe in teaching their subject in the same manner that they have used for decades, it is up to their students to adapt to the teacher 's manner, ie swim or sink.

Other educators adopt new techniques over time, they attempt to make the material studied more accessible to their students.

Each student can chose their educator.
 
I did all these recipes myself 4 years ago, when this concept was not available. Endless gathering and 4 years of practicing. Until I realised grand orchestration is really not the thing on my music, rather it should be simple. 4 years of work, sometimes 10 hours a day. Now this concept is available - with the click of the keyboard. I dont know - is there a bitter taste in the mouth now. Like someone who digged a trench before the finger snap was available. I dont know. Does hard work and good deeds bring results? - not always. Good luck with project, theres 100% chance it will succeed.
 
You are supposed to say something unique, not reproduce what others have said.

A lot of great art borrows from what came before it. And given the sheer volume of creative works people produce as a whole, it's next-to-impossible to be truly unique. IMHO, uniqueness is overrated. There is nothing wrong with iterating on what others have done.

The audience also needs to be considered. One's audience may appreciate familiarity; stray too far from that and one risks alienating them.
 
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The thing with these recipes is that they are little exercises that help you understand nuances of theory that I didn't get in my basic theory class. (I couldn't take advanced because it is only a day class and I work) Things like the altos sound more interesting if they aren't a perfect third below the sopranos. I'm not following the recipe exactly. I am making my own melody using the general idea of the recipe. And I'm coming up with something interesting that I would never have thought to write.

And, more importantly, I'm having fun doing it. Which means I will continue learning. It is, after all, a hobby for me. If it isn't enjoyable, I will eventually quit it.
 
Another thing about these recipes and the concept of recipes is that they are something you can build from. All of the greatest chefs learned the most basic recipes at one point or another, and then they built off of those recipes. I view these orchestral recipes in the same manner. They show a path to achieving a specific type of "dish", but once you have an understanding of what that dish is delivering, you can build off of it and change it as much as you'd like.

I'm personally excited to use these orchestral recipes to help develop better orchestration on a micro level, and see how I might evolve them into my own recipes and variations as I progress.
 
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