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Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 4 - Elite Orchestral Forces

@ProfoundSilence --
Did you just join VI Control to spam this thread? Enough, we get it.
Whatever you say jack, this thread is relevant to me - because I spent 400$ on it and haven't had time at my home computer to play with it much. Are you surprised I'm watching this thread - for demos like alex's? You still haven't answered my question... Are you legitimately bitter that a pre-order option exists? Or would you rather it just rendered 100% useless because you didn't purchase it during pre-order? No reason to throw stones at me over this.

Jbuhler is atleast making a case that there was a system previously that he preferred. I assume OT stopped offering that discount because they need new buyers - and already pricy libraries even cheaper to somebody else *apparently* bothers some people. These are all things nobody cared about before OT did sales, and now they are being treated like a generic brand.

wasn't it you who said you wouldn't pay more than 50$ for an 8dio library? I could be confusing you for someone else, but regardless - 8dio's products are fine, and capable... but they are treated like generic soda by default. This kind of consumerism is literally going to kill samples. The budget required for orchestral sampling in Teldex/MGM sony/AIR is absolutely insane - and users are now comfortable trying to nickel and dime these companies until they go extinct. That's not a path I want to follow - even if it leaves some users behind. If the perceived value of OT libraries goes down - and people decide to only pay 40% off prices, then I expect the quality will go down, and it'll go from 1 velocity layer with 3 round robins down to 2.
 
Are you legitimately bitter that a pre-order option exists? Or would you rather it just rendered 100% useless because you didn't purchase it during pre-order? No reason to throw stones at me over this.
I don't think that's what he was saying (@Land of Missing Parts correct me if i'm wrong.) I think we were all just disappointed at the fact that there seemed to be little information from the time the preorder started (yes, I know this is not unique to OT). Had the demos and walkthroughs been available prior, we would have had a week to think it over and make a more informed decision.

I'm not salty about the preorder, personally. If someone wants to spend 400$ on reputation alone with minimal info, well, it's their money :) I just wish at the preorder we knew more about the product. (Yes, I'm aware there's still the intro price.)

I personally preordered Time Macro, but at the last minute after all the info was posted. I hate feeling rushed, but I guess that's psychology of sales, right there.

Try not to get too salty and worked up, and have a Merry Christmas! :)
 
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From Mktg perspective, and with major Library not quite ready for primetime, the Preorder process created enormous exposure and dialogue.
Sure …. some Yin-Yang reaction, but really amazing vehicle to introduce Ark 4.
Understand mixed feelings, but OT Mktg likely feels like very Happy Holidays …. ;)
 
But there WERE demos AND walkthroughs available before release. Some may not have thought them sufficient but they were there and sufficient for others.
I phrased that poorly, but I agree. I meant to say, 'had the demos and walkthroughs been made available prior [to when they were (e.g. earlier)]...

And those people are more comfortable with making decisions with limited information, good on them :). I'm not the most decisive person.

Merry Christmas.
 
I don't think that's what he was saying (@Land of Missing Parts correct me if i'm wrong.) I think we were all just disappointed at the fact that there seemed to be little information from the time the preorder started (yes, I know this is not unique to OT). Had the demos and walkthroughs been available prior, we would have had a week to think it over and make a more informed decision.

I'm not salty about the preorder, personally. If someone wants to spend 400$ on reputation alone with minimal info, well, it's their money :) I just wish at the preorder we knew more about the product. (Yes, I'm aware there's still the intro price.)

I personally preordered Time Macro, but at the last minute after all the info was posted. I hate feeling rushed, but I guess that's psychology of sales, right there.

Try not to get too salty and worked up, and have a Merry Christmas! :)

Having the critique that the info sooner would have been nice is fine... I think most of us would have rather had walkthroughs and demos up sooner - but those with interest(like myself) followed it and held onto my money until the walkthroughs and demos were out. ALL OF THE INFORMATION from demos and the walkthroughs were out before pre-order ended. Some might not want to feel rushed, but it's less than 1 hour of raw playtime to go over the entirety of what is available to see/listen to... And the trailer/demo sounds exactly like the library, as well as the articulation list published very early on.

This was not an uninformed decision problem - it was an ark 3/time macro problem... too many people had no idea what it was even suppose to be, so they were a little hesitant to risk it before more info was out. I had this issue with time macro - because despite liking the demos, I just wasn't sure what it was supposed to be, or if I'd like and use it myself. In this case, I held onto my money - and when the info was released, I decided not to get it. Ark 3 on the other hand, I was really unsure of - and still hadn't made up my mind after pre-order ended so I coughed up an extra 50 euros to take my time with the decision.

With time macro, if I had made the decision to buy it during the intro because it was cheaper, I can almost guarantee I'd be disappointed with my purchase, and wish I'd gotten something else. If the 50 euro difference tips the scales, it's hard to make a case that you wanted it enough in the first place.

Ark 4 on the other hand - has an aesthetic that I like, and extra demos only re-inforced that.

I think the harmonium from ark 2, the quinted from ark 3, BB muted brass exp, would make for a very fun template. even better might be ark 4 + glory days - but that was another library I just was too on the fence about to take the chance(and im glad I didn't, because ark 4 - despite WAYYYYY less content than glory days, has a flavor I want - not just 'kind of like')
 
@ProfoundSilence The demos that got released didn't showcase much. I find the user demos far more informative than the two that got released mere days before the preorder. Also, not all of us have the time to sit around on a forum waiting for information to pop up at the last minute like a puppy waiting for it's master at the door. Some of us have jobs that require our attention for more than 4 hours a day.

Whatever though, if it was good enough for you, then bravo. In the future, I hope OT learns from this and that it could certainly have had more money coming in if they had done things properly. In talking to some of the other composers, they are on the same page as myself and aren't happy about how it was handled and thus, we'll either wait or simply not buy it at all. None of these tools are a need. They are simply paints on a pallet. I certainly have no qualms with not buying from a company based on principle because something else will always take it's place. The ball is in their court. heh

I feel like I need some popcorn right now. :)
 
I don't think that's what he was saying (@Land of Missing Parts correct me if i'm wrong.
I just don't get why Orchestral Tools is trying to get customers to buy before they can see reviews and opinions. What do they have to gain by keeping people in the dark?

I also think it isn't helping them with sales. And it's baffling to see that some people are so keen on advocating for the best interests of Orchestral Tools and against the interests of themselves and their fellow musicians.
 
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@ProfoundSilence The demos that got released didn't showcase much. I find the user demos far more informative than the two that got released mere days before the preorder. Also, not all of us have the time to sit around on a forum waiting for information to pop up at the last minute like a puppy waiting for it's master at the door. Some of us have jobs that require our attention for more than 4 hours a day.

Whatever though, if it was good enough for you, then bravo. In the future, I hope OT learns from this and that it could certainly have had more money coming in if they had done things properly. In talking to some of the other composers, they are on the same page as myself and aren't happy about how it was handled and thus, we'll either wait or simply not buy it at all. None of these tools are a need. They are simply paints on a pallet. I certainly have no qualms with not buying from a company based on principle because something else will always take it's place. The ball is in their court. heh

I feel like I need some popcorn right now. :)
Not sure who that was directed at, considering my participation has been very sparse and concentrated. 24 hours in a day and it only takes one short poop to check OT/the forums. Spare me the drama, if you're on a forum - you're well versed in "wasting time on the internet". If you don't like their business practice - don't support them.


All I'm going to point out here - is that this was coming on the tail of an insane amount of sampling(glory days), so the library would have been doing it's best just to make it to the finish line in working fashion.

Given the tight production schedule - and something totally odd, demo writers would definitely take a little longer to figure out a library before making a demo for it. If it was just another string library - they'd have tons of experience writing for string libraries.

and it was more than 2 demos, and it was more than the night before.

release date was December 19th
demo 1 when the trailer launched.
screencast 1 on dec 13
screencast 2 on dec 14
3 demos on the 17th
2 on the 18th.
then it was released on the 19th.

if you were interested December 6th - you could save money then - and just check a day or two before the actual launch. It's not like OT is a wildcard - it's not like you're buying from a company nobody has heard of, or has any experience with... they have been a very consistent developer, and all the information was there. At this point you're upset that you didn't have demos a whole week before hand to mull over? My advice is this, if you need a week to decide if you want a niche library - and suddenly an extra 50 euros makes it off the table - then you didn't want the library enough... just leave it at that, and sleep easier tonight.

As I've stated, that's how I felt about time macro - and I don't regret not buying it.

ark 3, time macro, and ark 4 are not typical sample libraries... give the demo writers a break. Most of this boils down to the same thing... a handful of events have made people frustrated at something they wouldn't have been 2 months ago. Some might have been mad because they weren't sure if they should buy ark 1 + 2 or wait for 4 - but that just comes down to listening.

The very first demo(the trailer) and the articulation list is quite a lot of information... reading the instrumentation and listening to the piece allows you to pretty handily identify different instruments and articulations in the mix. This requires you actually know what any of these instruments actually sound like - but I assume if you're spending 400$ on a sample library then you probably have ears, and care about these instrument combinations.

I mean, I struggle to think of an instrument that wasn't used in the trailer... sure not every single articulation was used, but are you really going to say you didn't buy it because you didn't hear the Mid string diminuendos? Why do people feel the need to completely blow out of proportion the information they had access to during the preorder? Seems like their production schedule is extremely rushed lately, and nice to have information sooner? sure. But with OT demos, they are exceptionally clear. OT libraries sound exactly like OT demos, and to my knowledge, most demos don't even use much post outside of maybe a bricasti send on the master... I'd love to have had all the demos up on December 6th myself - but you can tell just about all you need to know with the following 3 pieces of information:

OT's consistency historically
The demo
the articulation list.

People who pre-ordered aren't making a blind guess, most of us have plenty of experience with the QA of their products - can listen to a demo, look at an articulation list & relisten to the demo while looking at the articulation list to figure out if we want that aesthetic. Personally, I bought berlin expasions before I even purchased one of their main libraries to get a feel for the company.
 
I also think it isn't helping them with sales.

Neither you nor I know that. This feels like it's blurring the line between the previous ark owner discount and pre-order discount, while silently moving the baseline price up due to inflation. Like offering a loyalty discount that doesn't exclude other OT clients that didn't own any of the Ark series, or newcomers. If they find that the bulk of their sales are pre-orders with previous owners, they are not likely to lose any ark fans over an extra 50$, especially given the nature of the library as almost a "first chairs" for arks they already own. I suspect some grumbled, but ultimately bought it anyways.


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And it's baffling to see that some people are so keen on advocating for the best interests of Orchestral Tools and against the interests of themselves and their fellow musicians, and against the VI Control spirit of helping people make the most informed decisions they can. It just seems lose-lose-lose.

For clients of sample libraries, as well as fans of orchestral tools products - it's in our best interest to be smarter than your average bear. Catering to the lowest bidders is absolutely suicidal. Do you have literally any idea how much it costs to rent one of these spaces, recording engineers - and hire session musicians/an orchestra? Exactly how much do you think it costs to record these libraries???????

Look at products like wivi… they were really ahead of their time, and quite impressive - but development or even interest in those kinds of virtual instruments just about came to a halt - because it was far too difficult and unrewarding.

I bought around 2700$ worth of a CCC from EWQL - and now you could get all of that and more for a monthly subscription. EW has already made their money - instead these up and coming library developers have to sample odd instruments, because there is no reason hiring a budget orchestra, with budget equiptment, and then desperately trying to recoup costs because someone down the street is selling an unfathomably expensive recording, editing, and scripting process to make the EWQL products for next to nothing.


Entire sectors of the market are disappearing, leaving only the biggest competitors able to afford the resources to make a competitive product, and having to sell it as low as they can manage - while still paying royalties/digging themselves out of debt, so someone can piss and moan that they can't save 50 euros on it.

not sure how much it costs to score something in teldex, but for a relatively short piece at MGM, it costs nearly 10 grand. Imagine paying for every note to be sampled, at multiple dynamics, with multiple articulations.

This radical consumerism is going to continue to choke sample libraries, and eventually cause them all to try to make other products that are vastly more profitable.


Mini rant: look at MOBAs and the death of the MMO genre. F2p mmos came out, saturated the market - and destroyed the mmo market, while destroying any chance of decent games to exist because they competed directly with P2W games that lived off "whales" rather than general player happiness. Meanwhile, FPS games, and Mobas - are INSANELY CHEAPER to make, because they require a fraction of the art assets, and make a ton more money.


Now if you want a reasonable MMO gaming experience - goodluck.

So this "consumer first" business only works when you can be sure that the business is thriving. And given the price tag of OT products - I can guarantee you that they suffer from massive amounts of piracy. Be grateful we have companies like cinesamples, spitfire, and Orchestral tools(and almost a full orchestra in trackdown). Spitfire has relied a lot on marketing, sometimes less than savory.

An excellent example was the tragically long period of time that the expansions for SSO existed - giving more microphone positions, and professional mixes... these were 399 EACH SECTION and had 0 demos for years... not a single demo of even the extra mics, and I didn't know a single person who had any of these expansions - so there was no user data either.



So please, have some perspective. [/COLOR]
 
:geek: disregard logic, respond with baseless ad hominem.

The writing is on the wall - don't say I didn't warn you. Calling someone a shill is soooooo 2016 anyways. Kind of odd to stick up for 4 major players in the orchestral sampling world, only to be reduced to a shill for one of them.

Personally, knowing what the library is good at and what I feel like it should be used for - I'm more interested in how people use it to augment the berlin or ark series. Or even glory days...
 
Personally, knowing what the library is good at and what I feel like it should be used for - I'm more interested in how people use it to augment the berlin or ark series. Or even glory days...
Sure, I think we'd all be interested in hearing about that, and sampling being a capitalistic enterprise, the companies will rise or fall on their ability to make money off the samples they sell. Yes, that's a double-edged sword, and if you want to make a decent return on investment, you have to price your library at a point that it will sell to more than just seasoned professionals. That's a quandary to be sure. It may lead to a race to the bottom.

OT recently changed the model of how they will conduct business. The announcement of the January event suggests more change is in the air. Where will it head? Who knows? You mourn it in your way, with a rant about the fall into consumerism, I mourn it mine with disappointment about the passing of a traditional price structure that makes me worry about a company that is raising prices in a declining market, that seems to me to be cutting corners in order to bring products to market more quickly, that holds a series of big sales—the first time they've done it at scale—and it comes off as completely uncoordinated. I hope that is in fact just a sign of rapid growth, though it doesn't feel that way.

Ark 4, on the other hand, still seems very incoherent to me as a library, even if it has things that I very much like, such as the strings and the overblown articulations. But I'm not convinced OT really had the concept of the library down and I suspect this will show in their sales. My guess is that the sales of Time Macro exceeded expectations and so we'll be seeing more of that kind of thing, because the price point was good and you know consumerism and all that. But that's just a suspicion, and whether I'm right or wrong, matters not in the least because it's obviously OT's decision to make.
 
I think they had a vision - many asked for a "first chairs" type ark. Seems like they combined elements of this idea with the success BHTC had. I see it more like the first chairs situation - but the perspective really comes down to how you plan on using it.
 
I think they had a vision - many asked for a "first chairs" type ark. Seems like they combined elements of this idea with the success BHTC had. I see it more like the first chairs situation - but the perspective really comes down to how you plan on using it.
The string selection makes sense to me (and the strings do sound exceptional), and even the idea of a more intimate sound that nevertheless struggles for and against the epic. I hear this idea in the choir, though I wonder if it succeeds (or rather whether the way certain voices pop out on certain notes will become quickly tiresome). (The shouts though are great.) But the woodwinds seem more an attempt to avoid stepping on Berlin Woodwinds than something that makes sense for the logic of this library (or the Ark collection) and the combinations in BHCT come from a different kind of logic than the one that OT pursued for the other Ark libraries. The best I can say for the woodwinds in terms of the concept is that these combinations do struggle with and against the epic idea of the assimilation of the individual sound into the ensemble mass in a way that would not have been the case had they been done like the ensemble patches in Arks 1 and 2. That idea actually intrigues me, but I'm not sure if I'd find it useful as a compositional resource, and I'm not convinced the library has been recorded and mixed for the library to realize that idea in a way that I can't get by just dialing up a set of woodwinds and having them play unisons or octaves. I mean will I just continue to use other woodwinds? Almost certainly for everything but the overblown articulations, which seem like real gems, and these do seem to go back to the struggle of the epic and the individual within it. (I might also use the short trills, but I'm not sure how they fit with the idea of the library). The power legato—I've yet to hear an example of it that convinces me of its utility, though I can see how this fits with the idea of the library.

So does this add up to something I need to buy because it offers me something I don't otherwise have or something that would be fun in the way that say Ark 3 is even if I don't end up using it in work very often? Well, I'm not sure, and I'm not even sure if I've analyzed the library more or less correctly because I still haven't heard enough demos or seen a user walkthrough (hopefully these will start appear after the holidays) to get a complete handle on it.
 
well personally, in the short moments I open my daw without feeling too overwhelmed - using the sustain + power sustain 2d cross fade is cool.

one thing that IS nice - is that the power legato transitions are selectable in multis - meaning you could technically take martele and add power legato transitions.

I actually think a combo with one of the longer "shorts" and power sustains will actually be something I use more than the power legato patches. This is especially useful because of the very next problem I have:

the power legato is only 1 dynamic layer.

If I were in your shoes I'd pass. Mainly because the aesthetic alone doesn't seem to be grabbing you - so unless you're heavily invested into teldex and what some unique instruments added to the stage - don't worry about. If you've got berlin strings, or 2 arks - it's still probably worth getting if you think you'll actually use the patches for supplementing.


If you've got ark 3, you probably already know about how incredible the quintet secretly is... layering that on the other ark shorts is already awesome - especially if you blend a little of the cluster in.


Using these articulations(like the overblown and power legatos) add a lot to the other OT products. Having the strings almost niente quiet adds what feels like "more" cc1 range when stacked with a regular string legato. And the horns especially, because the transitions are almost rips, which sounds really cool with the other berlin/ark horns. The piccolo/flute has some cool little grace note type things too in the legato... surprisingly would work for ethnic type stuff.
 
well personally, in the short moments I open my daw without feeling too overwhelmed - using the sustain + power sustain 2d cross fade is cool.

one thing that IS nice - is that the power legato transitions are selectable in multis - meaning you could technically take martele and add power legato transitions.

I actually think a combo with one of the longer "shorts" and power sustains will actually be something I use more than the power legato patches. This is especially useful because of the very next problem I have:

the power legato is only 1 dynamic layer.

If I were in your shoes I'd pass. Mainly because the aesthetic alone doesn't seem to be grabbing you - so unless you're heavily invested into teldex and what some unique instruments added to the stage - don't worry about. If you've got berlin strings, or 2 arks - it's still probably worth getting if you think you'll actually use the patches for supplementing.


If you've got ark 3, you probably already know about how incredible the quintet secretly is... layering that on the other ark shorts is already awesome - especially if you blend a little of the cluster in.


Using these articulations(like the overblown and power legatos) add a lot to the other OT products. Having the strings almost niente quiet adds what feels like "more" cc1 range when stacked with a regular string legato. And the horns especially, because the transitions are almost rips, which sounds really cool with the other berlin/ark horns. The piccolo/flute has some cool little grace note type things too in the legato... surprisingly would work for ethnic type stuff.
Thank you! This is most helpful. The little things you mentioned about the transitions actually sound pretty cool and something that would be nice. I heard inklings of these in the demos but couldn’t get a full sense of what they might do.
 
heres a little noodling trying to show the "random" grace notes. Then I armed the MA high strings 8va legato just to show what high winds would sound like with MA.

I don't do epic music - but I imagine some 2SFH like pirate/celtic epic track that ends up on one of those compilations.

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