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Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 4 - Elite Orchestral Forces

the pre-order price is for loyalty really.

It's really odd for people to have this weird value perception issue - simply because they did a few sales, but that's why they don't do sales... because people suddenly think "it's not worth it" because it was 50$ cheaper to someone else...

People who bought OT libraries generally felt they were worth it at the price point they were at... and likewise, despite this seeming like somewhat of an enigma - those of us who are willing to pay OT prices don't see an issue. Everyone's line is different I suppose - and for me, there were only a few instruments I really wanted in ark 2, and the sale made the scale tip. I'm not saying that the 50$ can't tip the scales for you, but if your scales tip at 50$ you're probably not the demographic OT is after. There are plenty of developers that make less expensive libraries, and if you're that unsure about Ark 4 - you should just save your money and grab other libraries from other developers.

Like I said, this perspective issue is just silly... those of us who have many OT releases got the library for 50$ cheaper, if you think that giving repeat/loyal customers a discount is a problem - how do you think other people will feel when the intro offer is over and it's 549 euros in febuary?

Ark 4 is a unique flavor, having poked around a bit(still very busy until January personally) and if it's a sound you want, you'll be hard pressed to get it from other libraries. It's from OT, so you know the product will work - its not like they built a new engine that nobody has used... it's capsule, which their entire line(as far as I'm aware) is currently in, and working. Even older stuff like OSR and Orchestral Grands are in some iteration of capsule now. Not sure there's much more information you could possibly need to make an informed decision prior to the pre-order date... there were walkthroughs, demos before the date ended... pdf with articulations were up for a good long while - and it wasn't enough to bite, so why is anyone bothered?

if 50 euros is suddenly a problem, then you weren't interested enough in the library 50 euros ago.

It's moment's like these, that I'm glad I don't sell software. Some bothered there was no loyalty discount, some bothered that actual loyal people got a discount. Some bothered that there was sales at all, which honestly is probably the root of everyone complaining's issue. If there wasn't the last few big sales with OT, not a soul would care about the pre-order price... Heck, less than a year ago - people were paying full price for their libraries, and nobody felt compelled to make a post after paying over 200 euros more than the pre-order prices.
 
It is very bizarre. There would seem to be no need for it. While their products are usually solid enough that you can take a leap of faith for an extra discount, it unnecessarily puts the onus on their marketing, demos and walkthtroughs to be as effective and extensive as possible. And if any of those things fall short during the pre-release period, it drives away people who would have otherwise purchased at a great price.

If the intro price was the same as pre-release, I literally would have purchased this library immediately after hearing @Alex Niedt ‘s demo.

honestly, not to sound rude - but this mindset is absolutely inconceivable to me.
Either there is absolutely NO REASON AT ALL to pre-order, or you would rather pre-order not exist at all?

or would you like a useless pre-order to waste the developers time? Pre-orders are nothing new at all, it's not like your money disappears the day before pre-order ends... either you have the money for preorder or don't... So wanting to pay pre-order price after other people have bought and played with the library is just wanting something for nothing. You want other people to risk their $$ to scout it out for you, and then you get the same deal as them?

Maybe I'm missing something - but everytime someone makes this argument, I can't help but feel like there is something I'm missing here - or the person has never pre-ordered anything in their life and doesn't understand why companies use pre-order.


One simple example(ark 4 is an excellent one) they could use pre-orders to gauge consumer interest, and decide how long an intro period needs to be to recoup their investments. It's also useful because the company has likely invested an extremely large amount of capital creating a product and could use the extra cash flow for advertising. Or in the unfortunate event that the library bombed, they could start assessing reasons why - and potentially change their production schedule if they had similar products planned.

Plenty of useful reasons... and pre-ordering at an even lower price is the consumer's reward.
 
I get why a consumer might see value in waiting for reviews and user opinions.

value, like 50 euros? If I was unsure of a library - 50 euros is much better than wasting 349 euros on something I don't want. I specifically didn't buy ark 3 on preorder, but did purchase it during the intro for this reason. Was worth 50 euros to me just to wait and see.

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I don't get why Orchestral Tools sees value--€50 to be exact--in getting customers to buy before they can see reviews and opinions.
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You don't see why orchestral tools values their most loyal and trusting users? You don't see why orchestral tools values cash flow after a steep investment into a library?
 
For me, having Ark4 Intro … squarely on top of NI _ Promo was really clumsy. Lots of dinero involved, and having Ark1 to build on, affected some choices. Maybe some would have been upset at having Ark 4 Intro a bit later (like now), but seems it would have been a preferred plan.
 
the pre-order price is for loyalty really.

It's really odd for people to have this weird value perception issue - simply because they did a few sales, but that's why they don't do sales... because people suddenly think "it's not worth it" because it was 50$ cheaper to someone else...

People who bought OT libraries generally felt they were worth it at the price point they were at... and likewise, despite this seeming like somewhat of an enigma - those of us who are willing to pay OT prices don't see an issue. Everyone's line is different I suppose - and for me, there were only a few instruments I really wanted in ark 2, and the sale made the scale tip. I'm not saying that the 50$ can't tip the scales for you, but if your scales tip at 50$ you're probably not the demographic OT is after. There are plenty of developers that make less expensive libraries, and if you're that unsure about Ark 4 - you should just save your money and grab other libraries from other developers.

Like I said, this perspective issue is just silly... those of us who have many OT releases got the library for 50$ cheaper, if you think that giving repeat/loyal customers a discount is a problem - how do you think other people will feel when the intro offer is over and it's 549 euros in febuary?

Ark 4 is a unique flavor, having poked around a bit(still very busy until January personally) and if it's a sound you want, you'll be hard pressed to get it from other libraries. It's from OT, so you know the product will work - its not like they built a new engine that nobody has used... it's capsule, which their entire line(as far as I'm aware) is currently in, and working. Even older stuff like OSR and Orchestral Grands are in some iteration of capsule now. Not sure there's much more information you could possibly need to make an informed decision prior to the pre-order date... there were walkthroughs, demos before the date ended... pdf with articulations were up for a good long while - and it wasn't enough to bite, so why is anyone bothered?

if 50 euros is suddenly a problem, then you weren't interested enough in the library 50 euros ago.

It's moment's like these, that I'm glad I don't sell software. Some bothered there was no loyalty discount, some bothered that actual loyal people got a discount. Some bothered that there was sales at all, which honestly is probably the root of everyone complaining's issue. If there wasn't the last few big sales with OT, not a soul would care about the pre-order price... Heck, less than a year ago - people were paying full price for their libraries, and nobody felt compelled to make a post after paying over 200 euros more than the pre-order prices.
You may be right, but OT is raising intro prices in a declining market for a product that I would argue has less marginal value due to the other Ark products in that market, which they themselves flooded with that NI deal. Ark 3 was offered at 299 to existing customers, Ark 4 is offered at 349 for all customers, which is a significant price increase for existing customers. They may have bet they could get more folks to buy Ark 4 at the intro price who had bought other Arks during the NI sale than they would not get from those who already owned previous Arks and wouldn't purchase at the higher intro price. For all I know, maybe that calculus was correct, but I would love to see their sales figures, which I would bet is considerably below the other Arks (though that might have as much to do with all the crazy sales that happened after BF this year as with their pricing structure and the library's less articulate concept than the other Arks). Of course, OT has the right to do anything they want. Nobody is disputing that. And I certainly am not mad at OT for not offering the same price structure they had for the previous Ark introductions. I just find it odd (and OT does a lot of things I consider odd from a business perspective). But it is what it is, and it is their business, so I go back to evaluating whether the €399 they want for it now is better spent somewhere else.
 
Out of curiosity, can you think of other sample library devs who have a pre-release price the way OT does it? I can't think of any off the top of my head. The norm is to have an intro price period, then a regular price.
 
“Loyalty”? Seriously?

These are transactions, perhaps with companies you admire, but....”loyalty”??

Marketing and market research. The desire of people to form subgroups, often encouraged by marketing. Price points. Filling needs or creating a buzz.
These are market determinants. When I hear the word “loyalty” or the words “take my money”, I wonder what friggin’ planet I live on.
 
Out of curiosity, can you think of other sample library devs who have a pre-release price the way OT does it? I can't think of any off the top of my head. The norm is to have an intro price period, then a regular price.
can't remember completely, but wasn't HZ strings a pre-order event?

regardless, there are tons of software companies who do this all the time... it's extremely common with games - and arguably no different than early access pricing. Games that you can't play or watch a walkthrough of, because unlike sample libraries - they are under NDA much of the time.
 
can't remember completely, but wasn't HZ strings a pre-order event?

regardless, there are tons of software companies who do this all the time... it's extremely common with games - and arguably no different than early access pricing. Games that you can't play or watch a walkthrough of, because unlike sample libraries - they are under NDA much of the time.


i share some of these comments with the sales and marketing group at my current employer.

they think it's adorable.
 
“Loyalty”? Seriously?

These are transactions, perhaps with companies you admire, but....”loyalty”??

Marketing and market research. The desire of people to form subgroups, often encouraged by marketing. Price points. Filling needs or creating a buzz.
These are market determinants. When I hear the word “loyalty” or the words “take my money”, I wonder what friggin’ planet I live on.
This kind of loyalty is less about exclusivity - and more about investment into the OT ecosystem. Some fans of a companies products are given the opportunity to blindly invest in what they assume they will like, and are rewarded for it.


At this point, sounds like they should take pre-order away entirely, or people will kick and scream.
 
i share some of these comments with the sales and marketing group at my current employer.

they think it's adorable.
Just imagine the people who paid a premium and showed up to the announcement for HZ strings live - not having any idea WHAT they were getting, let alone if they liked what they were getting.

and HZ strings/the ticket to that event was a lot more expensive than the ark 4 pre-order. That said, I'm still having trouble grasping how people would want the pre-order option rendered 100% worthless. Would they seriously rather the pre-order come as special edition with more articulations or something instead??? something completely unobtainable after the fact?

or just remove pre-order because "IF I DONT WANT IT, NO ONE ELSE CAN HAVE IT" lol
 
the pre-order price is for loyalty really.

It's really odd for people to have this weird value perception issue - simply because they did a few sales, but that's why they don't do sales... because people suddenly think "it's not worth it" because it was 50$ cheaper to someone else...

People who bought OT libraries generally felt they were worth it at the price point they were at... and likewise, despite this seeming like somewhat of an enigma - those of us who are willing to pay OT prices don't see an issue. Everyone's line is different I suppose - and for me, there were only a few instruments I really wanted in ark 2, and the sale made the scale tip. I'm not saying that the 50$ can't tip the scales for you, but if your scales tip at 50$ you're probably not the demographic OT is after. There are plenty of developers that make less expensive libraries, and if you're that unsure about Ark 4 - you should just save your money and grab other libraries from other developers.

Like I said, this perspective issue is just silly... those of us who have many OT releases got the library for 50$ cheaper, if you think that giving repeat/loyal customers a discount is a problem - how do you think other people will feel when the intro offer is over and it's 549 euros in febuary?

Ark 4 is a unique flavor, having poked around a bit(still very busy until January personally) and if it's a sound you want, you'll be hard pressed to get it from other libraries. It's from OT, so you know the product will work - its not like they built a new engine that nobody has used... it's capsule, which their entire line(as far as I'm aware) is currently in, and working. Even older stuff like OSR and Orchestral Grands are in some iteration of capsule now. Not sure there's much more information you could possibly need to make an informed decision prior to the pre-order date... there were walkthroughs, demos before the date ended... pdf with articulations were up for a good long while - and it wasn't enough to bite, so why is anyone bothered?

if 50 euros is suddenly a problem, then you weren't interested enough in the library 50 euros ago.

It's moment's like these, that I'm glad I don't sell software. Some bothered there was no loyalty discount, some bothered that actual loyal people got a discount. Some bothered that there was sales at all, which honestly is probably the root of everyone complaining's issue. If there wasn't the last few big sales with OT, not a soul would care about the pre-order price... Heck, less than a year ago - people were paying full price for their libraries, and nobody felt compelled to make a post after paying over 200 euros more than the pre-order prices.

No offense, but this is such a pile of crap argument to make not to mention mildly insulting because some people aren't as willing to throw money into the wind as others.

I have no problem with loyalty discounts if we know what we are buying ahead of time. OT waited until the absolute last minute to even bother posting their walkthroughs, which were okay at best seeing as they skimmed over quite a bit and simply forwent many other things. There were very few demos of the product out by the time the loyalty period was over as well. Both of these things were painfully obviously done on purpose to pressure people into buying because there is simply not a single good excuse as to why they couldn't have prepared it ahead of time.

Almost every other company does the same things when it comes to putting out a product for pre-release: Announce it, bring out demos and a walkthrough. This usually happens at worst within a day or two of each other and certainly BEFORE the product even goes on sale. The lack of this shows willing disregard for their customers. OT isn't new to the game. They know exactly how to prepare a new product. They also have plenty of time to do it and to prep a set of demos to release along side it so either they are doing it on purpose or they've become completely incompetent. Pick one because those are the only two viable options. The only other company that does this is EastWest and they fall into both categories in my books but at least they leave the introductory price up with enough time for reviewers to get their hands on the product and give people the rundown.

I am OT's demographic. I own most of their products. I'm not paying 400 euros for this because I'm simply pissed off at the way they are treating their customers. Maybe some of you are fine with tossing a handful of money at a company and hoping you get something good from it; most of us are not. To say that we are not their target demographic because we're mad at the price jump for being more careful than some just shows yourself to be more foolish with finances than we are. I judge each purchase by how useful I think it will be as should everyone. People who buy into blind loyalty eventually get screwed.
 
This kind of loyalty is less about exclusivity - and more about investment into the OT ecosystem.
Investment in their “ecosystem”. Ohhhh-kay. Why not “the Orchestral Tools family”?

I respect developers and wish them well, but this sort of stuff is a marketer’s dream.

I think I’m gonna leave this to the cultists, because otherwise I think my head might explode. It could get gnarly.
 
Maybe some of you are fine with tossing a handful of money at a company and hoping you get something good from it; most of us are not.

It’s not the case that there was absolutely zero information about the product out there before the preorder ended. It may not have been enough for you but it’s possible that others may have seen enough from demos and walkthrus to feel that 349e is likely worth it but 549e is maybe not. And user demos seem promising so far
 
OK, here's a demo made from only Metropolis Ark 4, using pretty much all the instruments (with a bunch of keyswitching). This should hopefully give you a good idea in about one minute.



I like the video, but does the brass sound pretty fake at times here or is it just me?

I feel like I'm being very picky, so apologies...at least I didn't bring up legato lol!
 
It’s not the case that there was absolutely zero information about the product out there before the preorder ended. It may not have been enough for you but it’s possible that others may have seen enough from demos and walkthrus to feel that 349e is likely worth it but 549e is maybe not. And user demos seem promising so far


This is the part that is strange to me... pre-orders 2 weeks before release and 2 hours before release are the same price... I waited until the last day to pre-order(although I had made my mind up before hand) There is no rush or obligation to order any faster, so I waited until the most information was out - not just walkthroughs, but more demos - showcasing it was the exact flavor I expected the library to deliver, and it was one that I liked.

Personally - I literally open the OT website and left the single demo play nightly as I was getting ready for bed. I'd already digested the individual elements from the demo quite a bit by the time walkthroughs and the new demos hit. All of that was available prior to the pre-release ending. Like I said, it's not like 400$ was going to disappear 2 days before the release... so if I had the money a week in advance - i'd still have it up to release.


As far as people feeling insulted... quite frankly - I don't care. If you are bothered by the fact that someone else with the same information was informed enough to make a decision that you weren't sure of - then there's not much anyone can do for you. If your self worth is tied around being able to chuck 349 euros at a library or not - then forum users aren't responsible for that. I can't afford the new tesla roadster, but I don't feel like less of a person that other people pre-ordered the car before they could drive it/official specs/ratings/ect were out. Nobody is insulting people for not pre-ordering, if anything, I am criticizing the fact that some users have 0 idea what a pre-order is, what purposes it serves, or how and why they are useful. Either that - or they are so self absorbed that they simply don't like the concept, and think others shouldn't have that option because they don't want it.

The bottom line, is that some people had enough information to risk 349 euros - while some others(understandably) were on the fence. It's not exactly a typical product, I imagine many were also feeling the same way about BHTC when it was released...

I'll ask one more time - if there was no pre-order at ALL, and it was just released as 399 intro offer - would people still be upset?
 
This is the part that is strange to me... pre-orders 2 weeks before release and 2 hours before release are the same price... I waited until the last day to pre-order(although I had made my mind up before hand) There is no rush or obligation to order any faster, so I waited until the most information was out - not just walkthroughs, but more demos - showcasing it was the exact flavor I expected the library to deliver, and it was one that I liked.

Personally - I literally open the OT website and left the single demo play nightly as I was getting ready for bed. I'd already digested the individual elements from the demo quite a bit by the time walkthroughs and the new demos hit. All of that was available prior to the pre-release ending. Like I said, it's not like 400$ was going to disappear 2 days before the release... so if I had the money a week in advance - i'd still have it up to release.


As far as people feeling insulted... quite frankly - I don't care. If you are bothered by the fact that someone else with the same information was informed enough to make a decision that you weren't sure of - then there's not much anyone can do for you. If your self worth is tied around being able to chuck 349 euros at a library or not - then forum users aren't responsible for that. I can't afford the new tesla roadster, but I don't feel like less of a person that other people pre-ordered the car before they could drive it/official specs/ratings/ect were out. Nobody is insulting people for not pre-ordering, if anything, I am criticizing the fact that some users have 0 idea what a pre-order is, what purposes it serves, or how and why they are useful. Either that - or they are so self absorbed that they simply don't like the concept, and think others shouldn't have that option because they don't want it.

The bottom line, is that some people had enough information to risk 349 euros - while some others(understandably) were on the fence. It's not exactly a typical product, I imagine many were also feeling the same way about BHTC when it was released...

I'll ask one more time - if there was no pre-order at ALL, and it was just released as 399 intro offer - would people still be upset?


this, and the pissed off posts in the Spitfire Wishlist thread,

is making my coffee extremely enjoyable this lovely Christmas morning.

Merry Christmas!!!
 
I'll ask one more time - if there was no pre-order at ALL, and it was just released as 399 intro offer - would people still be upset?
Upset, I'm not sure, but disappointed. The price point for existing users is up considerably over past offers for this series. OT can do what they want, that's true. It doesn't mean people won't feel disappointed, especially given that OT gave no signal that they were changing the tradition.
 
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